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| | | | | So, Neo...What Is Offensive? | | | | | found on MSNBC
written by subsailor, edited by George (Plastic) [ read unedited ]
posted Thu 15 May 7:58am | | | | |
 | subsailor surfaces long enough to remind us, "You can't make a movie these days without offending someone. George Lucas managed to annoy Mexican Catholics, Asians and Jews. Hispanics felt left out of the slander until the next prequel, but had to stretch it a bit by claiming Temuera 'Jango Fett' Morrison, a New Zealander of Maori descent 'looked totally Latino.'
"If initial reports on The Matrix Reloaded are any indication, Hollywood has even managed to offend those who are really, really white. Victims of albinism claim the white-skinned, white-haired, red-eyed villains 'unfairly stereotype pigment-challenged individuals.' A spokesman from Warner Brothers claims the characters are pale due to being dead (cautionary note to WB — careful, you may offend the living impaired)."
The Matrix Reloaded isn't the only movie that offends those suffering from albinism — at least two websites devoted to cataloguing films that feature pale-skinned heroes and villains. Not that there are many of the former.
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[ more plastic... ] |
| | | | | | | 1. Count me among the offended. | | | | by David Flores |  | | | at Thu 15 May 8:17am | score of 1.5 succinct | | | | | | |
George Lucas managed to annoy Mexican Catholics...
I wonder why the qualifier "Mexican" was necessary at all in this reference? It would seem to suggest that these people were offended because Star Wars Episode I was seen as stereotyping hispanics, or Mexicans, or somesuch. But when you read the reference, you'll find that these were simply Catholics who were upset that Lucas was appropriating Christian theological references for use as literary devices in his movie. It would be more appropriate to say that Lucas "offended some Catholics", or even "offended some Catholics in Mexico."
Of course, the offense to Catholics in Mexico paled beside the offense that Star Wars fans suffered when Lucas offered up that turkey of a prequel. And I've got to confess that I too was offended by the reference to the Virgin birth that offended some Catholics, not because I'm religious, but because it was so clumsily done and painfully un-subtle. Annakin's mother practically turned to the camera to say "you, know... LIKE JESUS!" Ugh!
GAFB and GAFB2
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| | | | | | 10. Re: Count me among the offended. | | | | by CaptainLiberal |  | | | at Thu 15 May 9:37am | score of 2.5 succinct | | in reply to comment 1 | | | | | |
It would be more appropriate to say that Lucas "offended some Catholics", or even "offended some Catholics in Mexico."
Or, more accurately, Lucas offended some whining crybabies with some parts, and those who have taste with all the other parts.
Every dream turns into something on a T-shirt -- Shriekback
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| | | | | 86. Re: Count me among the offended. | | | | by Chasuk | | | | at Fri 16 May 10:58am | score of 1.5 compelling | | in reply to comment 1 | | | | | |
... appropriating Christian theological references for use as literary devices in his movie.
Referring to motion picture treasures alone:
And this is offensive how? If the Wachowski Brothers hadn't borrowed from Buddhism and Gnostic Christianity, we wouldn't have The Matrix, if William Peter Blatty and William Friedkin hadn't utilized Roman Catholic mythology we wouldn't have The Exorcist, and if Ray Harryhausen hadn't borrowed from Greek mythology we wouldn't have Jason and the Argonauts.
Are you saying that because a faith (or, as some would call it, a superstition) has current adherents, it shouldn't be used to give resonance to a story? What a boring, bland world that would be, if everyone subscribed to your censoring mindset.
Neopets - the best free game on the Internet.
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| | | | | 124. Re: Count me among the offended. | | | | by Nameless Cynic | | | | at Sat 17 May 8:25am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 109 | | | | | |
Didn't he offend the patois speaking Caribbean folks with that meesah so stupid Jar Jar? Actually, Jar-Jar was a combination of Caribbean patois (black) and that great actor Steppin Fetchit (with, oddly enough, pinkish flesh). Ridiculously offensive.
Equally offensive were those "Yellow Peril" stereotypes filled by the Trade Federation.
Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare
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| | | | | 130. Re: Count me among the offended. | | | | by MacGabhain | | | | at Sat 17 May 9:08am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 1 | | | | | |
As a Catholic Christian with a pretty good grounding in the early days of his religion, I feel compelled to point out that virgin births, or other instances of unknown or unusual paternity, are a dime a dozen in classical hero literation. (Or 10 a p if you're on the other side of the pond.)
As a literary device, it's unique to Christianity no more than it's unique to, well, Star Wars.
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| | | | | | 2. to make ammends | | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Thu 15 May 8:21am | score of 1.5 intriguing | | | | | | |
ebert writes: I became aware, during the film, that a majority of the major characters were played by African Americans. Neo and Trinity are white, and so is Agent Smith, but consider Morpheus; his superior Commander Lock (Harry Lennix); the beautiful and deadly Niobe (Jada Pinkett Smith), who once loved Morpheus and now is with Lock, although she explains enigmatically that some things never change; the programmer Link (Harold Perrineau); Link's wife, Zee (Nona Gaye), who has the obligatory scene where she complains he's away from home too much, and the Oracle (the late Gloria Foster, very portentous). From what we can see of the extras, the population of Zion is largely black.
It has become commonplace for science fiction epics to feature one or two African-American stars, but we've come a long way since Billy Dee Williams in "Return of the Jedi." The Wachowski brothers use so many African Americans, I suspect, not for their box-office appeal, because the Matrix is the star of the movie, and not because they are good actors (which they are), but because to the white teenagers who are the primary audience for this movie, African- Americans embody a cool, a cachet, an authenticy. Morpheus is the power center of the movie, and Neo's role is essentially to study under him and absorb his mojo. so it all balances out in the end! equilibrium :D
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| | | | | | 11. the MMN, Reloaded | | | | by coquito |  | | | at Thu 15 May 9:42am | score of 4 brilliant | | in reply to comment 2 | | | | | |
The Wachowski brothers use so many African Americans... because to the white teenagers who are the primary audience for this movie, African- Americans embody a cool, a cachet, an authenticy. Morpheus is the power center of the movie, and Neo's role is essentially to study under him and absorb his mojo.
What he's talking about, but not really coming right out and saying, is the stereotype of the 'magic mystical negro.' Think Scatman Crothers in The Shining, or Will Smith in Bagger Vance, or everyone's favorite, Michael Clarke Duncan in the Green Mile. The MMN frequently has knowledge or abilities beyond that of the (always white) main character, or is portrayed as more 'natural' or 'close to the earth' in some way (you know, he got mo' soul). At the very least, he is a teacher or guide to the main character or offers unique assistance at some tide-turning point in the story. Really, you can find this guy in tons of movies (you know that alien dude in Last Starfighter was a black man!), even if in a diminished role.
Spike Lee complained about this back in 2001, and we discussed it here on Plastic (though I can't seem to find it in the archives, which are scrapped for 2001 anyway).
Of course, you can argue about whether or not this is such a bad thing, seeing as how it's generally a positive role the character is in, but once you recognize the MMN, you can find him (or her) everywhere...
(hey, this is fun! — you come up with Louis Gosset Jr. a lot though...;)
In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods -- learned Hindu scholar
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| | | | | 32. Re: the MMN, Reloaded | | | | by xTrapL8 | | | | at Thu 15 May 4:51pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 11 | | | | | |
Seems that Spike Lee (and Ebert) are not entirely isolated in their detection of this strange meme. Ot at least, that's what I think this review is (kinda) saying.
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones." -- John Cage
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| | | | | 50. Re: the MMN, Reloaded | | | | by moxen | | | | at Fri 16 May 8:03am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 11 | | | | | |
I'm not sure Ebert is referring to the MMN. The meme (as I understand it) refers to the tendency of writers to use blacks as a people endowed with supernatural abilities. In The Matrix Reloaded they are simply the subordinate heroes; not spiritual guides, not mystics. Though, of course, they exploit the idea by making the fortune teller in the first movie black.
The attraction to using 'minority' characters as mystics is understandable (be they black, Romani, Chinese, or just plain old), as you need something external to the main characters in order to provide that necessary insight. It's unlikely that anyone would create a mystically aware character of a twenty-five year old white man-- they're too obviously dull. We, the white viewing audience, simply know too much about whiteness to believe that our brethren could ever be cosmically aware. This isn't what the Wachowskis are doing, though. They're relying on the very real, practical image of blacks as hip, street-smart urbanites to carry the illusion of prowess, just as Neo is initially a bumbling, uncoordinated white guy. There's nothing magic or mystical about it.
Yes, this is somewhat contradictory (as Neo is the second coming), but I was referring the general tendency of storytellers to look to characters outside the dominant culture for insights.
It almost seems more likely that they're playing on a reversal of the typical black-white/good-evil iconography, making the evil characters white (albino, even) and the good characters primarily black. But, not having seen the damn movie, I should probably wait before theorizing.
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| | | | | 111. Lee's unexpurgated characterization | | | | by LIGAFF | | | | at Fri 16 May 2:08pm | score of 1.5 helpful | | in reply to comment 11 | | | | | |
The article you linked had a "softening" of Lee's original quote about these characters. The expurgation may have been done by the newspaper, or by Lee himself for some speech.
His original characterization was "Super Magical Niggers". Lee, of course, is permitted to use the "N word" since he be one hisself.
a www.notcoming.com link
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| | | | | 53. Re: the MMN, Reloaded | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Fri 16 May 8:19am | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 50 | | | | | |
I disagree. First, it seems that Ebert is nearly explicitly referencing the MMN. "Morpheus is the power center of the movie, and Neo's role is essentially to study under him and absorb his mojo," is how he put it. Second, I agree with him on that. Morpheus is not just a subordinate hero, as maybe Link would be. He can be seen as a John the Baptist figure, prophesying the coming of the savior, or I've also heard a convincing argument for the father in the Holy Trinity. Then there's the oracle. Clearly mystic insight in these characters.
And, while you are right that these character's blackness is used because of it's cachet, that is the same thing. The underlying belief (and it's not an uncommon one, or one anyone should feel guilty about failing to notice before or anything like that) is that the black person is somehow purer. It's conflated with a lot of similar beliefs. (The Boy Scouts, for instance, started with a belief that the city was impure and camping therefore good.) Sometimes this purity is related to their being "primitive." Sometimes to their being oppressed. Look at the history of the blues (eg. crossroads stories) and you'll see a lot of variations combining the two. But this purity, which is what gives them their hipness, means they're closer to the Truth. (That, and they're less threatening when you put them in a position of authority over the hero.) It's called exoticism, but using urban black attitudes is just a modernist variation.
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 60. Ebert vs. the MMN | | | | by coquito | | | | at Fri 16 May 8:45am | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 50 | | | | | |
The meme (as I understand it) refers to the tendency of writers to use blacks as a people endowed with supernatural abilities.
while the supernatural powers are a common thread, it's not a necessary part of the meme. at least, not to me. and i don't think it is to someone like Spike Lee either. it has more to do with a feeling that the black character is somehow more spiritually connected, it just so happens that can be easily expressed with magic powers.
In The Matrix Reloaded they are simply the subordinate heroes; not spiritual guides, not mystics. Though, of course, they exploit the idea by making the fortune teller in the first movie black.
well, looking at the Matrix movies together, especially the first, i'd have to disagree. the Oracle is obvious (even if she is... well... what we've learn she in Reloaded — actually, check that. especially after we learn what she is in Reloaded!). certainly in the first Matrix she was an MMN par-excellence.
on top of that, in the first Matrix, the only people we know are from Zion — the only 100%, born-free humans — are all black. again, this is part of the identification of the MMN as a character more 'natural' and 'closer to the earth' than the white protagonist. usually, these traits are something the protagonist learns, sometimes to the point of exemplifying the trait better than the character that originally expressed it (this is really evident in movies where whites come into contact with Native Americans, like Dances with Wolves or the Last Mohican).
and Morpheus is the HMMNIC (head magical mystical negro in charge), imo. he's the spiritual leader of the Nebuchadnezzar (i can't spell that!) crew, and especially of Neo. he awakens Neo to his true self, to the nature of 'reality', he trains him, he just about makes him The One by the sheer power of his belief. granted, things change a bit in the second movie, and his MMN status gets knocked a peg, but that's cool. i think the Wachowski's aren't making anyone to fit a stereotype, i think it's us who are projecting the stereotype on what they're doing. it's just that they make it easy (at least in the first film. in the second, the worst that can be said is that all the baddest baddies are white, blanc, and whiter than white.) i think it's actually a little f*d-up that so many reviewers think a world full of brown people is so weird. (i mean, this IS a world full of brown people for f*'s sake!)
of course, this leads me into semi-agreement with your 2nd paragraph (all but the very last sentence ;). and i especially agree with the idea that
you need something external to the main characters in order to provide that necessary insight. It's unlikely that anyone would create a mystically aware character of a twenty-five year old white man-- they're too obviously dull.
especially when you take "anyone" to mean any 'white' movie-maker or anyone aiming a movie directly at the mass (i.e. 'white') audience. which sucks. i think in this day and age we can make a movie where the roles are reversed and get away with minimal criticism, which is good.
I was referring the general tendency of storytellers to look to characters outside the dominant culture for insights.
this is exactly what the meme of the MMN is based upon. exactly. it's not all about super-powers, it's about the insight, the mysticality, the spirituality, the.. dare i say it... soul! (cue the james brown !) ;)
In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods -- learned Hindu scholar
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| | | | | 63. the review | | | | by coquito | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:02am | score of 1.5 astute | | in reply to comment 32 | | | | | |
oy vey...
you know, i'm starting to get irked at every reviewer making a big deal out the fact that the population of Zion isn't 75% Caucasian. maybe they should get out more, see more of the world. at least another continent or two.
i think the original Matrix ended up making more a statement about color than it meant to, and i think in the second, though they mellow it a bit (i really saw nothing weird about the Zion scenes, then again, i grew up in a brown nation) there's still some issues. i thought it was odd that all the major couples in the movie are color-coded (Neo/Trinity, Link/Zi, Morpheus/Naiobi/Locke) when it's obvious that in Zion in general there's whole lot of mixin' goin on.
and what the hell is this supposed to mean? "Keanu being in perpetual racial flux" — the man's white as rice during the entire movie!! it's Keanu Reeves. he was barely tan in Point Break for f*ks sake.
ugh... anyway... ranting. sorry.
also, yes, the villians are all quite pale. they don't just look white, they look sickly. and i think that's part of the point. they're machines. they look... antiseptic. they look, a little unreal. it's the "whiteness of the whale" all over again. or the Emperor and Darth Vader in Star Wars. it's one thing to be 'white' (like Neo), it's another thing to be freakishly so (which, of course, brings us back to the albino issue. they really do get the raw end of the deal. so do midgets and people with wandering eyes and hunchbacks and people with really large facial moles...) you know, there's also a damn good explanation for why so much of Zion is, as the reviewer puts it "of-color." he points it out himself when he explains how Zion came to be. all you need is for most of the forefathers and mothers to be brown and there you have it. not that it matters. i think people should just chill the hell out, watch the beautiful brown, black, white, and yellow people and enjoy the film. i did.
In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods -- learned Hindu scholar
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| | | | | 64. Re: Ebert vs. the MMN | | | | by chiaboy | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:04am | score of 1.5 brilliant | | in reply to comment 60 | | | | | |
I think the mystic Negro thing can be played a few ways. It can be patronizing (to audience and character alike) or it can be cool. Sort of related to the mystical Negro is how black people are just fucking cool. Miles Davis, Ali, Kobe Bryant, Morpheus are cool-ass bad motherfuckers. There is an attempt to co-opt this coolness by trotting out blacks. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it's risible.
But the black as spiritual guide really makes sense (or can make sense if done well). We are outsiders. Outsiders are the one's who typically take protagonists between places (which in this Matrix is very literally realized btw). The exotic otherness is always apart of the mystical awakening of a character. (Sort of like the suburban kids "transported" to the hood with their bagging jeans and Mp3 players blasting "my niggas!!") And like all art, it can be done well, or it can be cliched and insulting.
What I thought about the racial element in the movie is how little it really mattered. Sci-fi does offer some elements of a more perfect society in many ways. (Even it it's a dystopian universe) I think what today's audience is struck by isn't so much the racial make-up of Zion (which really makes sense on all levels) but the reaction to how different it is to our world. Seeing blacks with power, fully integrated into every aspect of culture, society, and the power structures, is shocking. They aren't marginalized or tokenized, they are fully a part of the mix. In the better world of the future that's how I imagine things to be.
Can a puma challenge a lion for king of the jungle?
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| | | | | 67. Sorry, I don't buy the cool argument... | | | | by VesuviusDC | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:25am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 64 | | | | | |
There are tons and tons of cool and uncool black, white, hispanic, asian, etc. people. I just don't buy the argument that "black people are cool". The movies make them out to be so. It's the white writers and white directors that treat the characters are stereotypes and write the "blackness" into them. Morpheus wears a full length black alligator skin coat and sunglasses. Of course he's cool.
I think it's a bad stereotype to say that black people are inherently "cool". Just as it's a bad stereotype to say that asians are smart, or white jews rich.
Comedies like "Head of State" are starting to grow tiresome, IMHO.
"Uncool" black people:
Marion Barry — former DC mayor
Henry Louis Wallace — serial killer
Ray Lewis — stabby football player
Mohammed Farah Aidid — Somalia warlord
Sam Bockarie — Sierra Leone murderer
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| | | | | 70. Re: the MMN, Reloaded | | | | by CaptainLiberal | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:45am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 50 | | | | | |
It's unlikely that anyone would create a mystically aware character of a twenty-five year old white man
I find this statement to be fairly bizarre, considering how many instances of "Magical White Men" I can think of off the top of my head.
There's Mr. North written originally by Thorton Wilder, who predates most of this Mystical Black Man carping. There's the really obvious "It's a Wonderful Life", wherein a white guy shows up to show another white guy the error of his ways. There's Three Wishes starring the always brilliant Patrick Swayze, there's the ultimate Mystical Stranger, in the wonderful novel Stranger in a Strange Land and Hearts in Atlantis is another "mysterious stranger" story, with the stranger being played by an older, white british guy.
Every dream turns into something on a T-shirt -- Shriekback
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| | | | | 73. Re: Sorry, I don't buy the cool argument... | | | | by chiaboy | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:53am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 67 | | | | | |
There are tons and tons of cool and uncool black
Clearly.
The idea discussed though is that the exotic ideal as encapusulated by "blackness" is often percieved by many to be cool. But you are correct, not everyone black is "cool". (I still watch Mystery Science Theatre)
Norman Mailer said in the White Negro: "Hated from outside and therefore hating himself" ... "the Negro was forced into the position of exploring all those moral wildernesses of civilized life which the Square automatically condemns as delinquent or evil or immature or morbid or self-destructive or corrupt."
This perception of "black cool" can be insulting, it can be uplifting, it can be limiting, and occassionally it can be liberating, but it exists.
Can a puma challenge a lion for king of the jungle?
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| | | | | 77. Re: the MMN, Reloaded | | | | by moxen | | | | at Fri 16 May 10:16am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 70 | | | | | |
I find this statement to be fairly bizarre, considering how many instances of "Magical White Men" I can think of off the top of my head.
My initial reaction to this thread, and the concept of the MMN, was that it's an illusion. After thinking about it more, though, I was unable to come up with many mystical caucasians that weren't either otherworldly (Gandalf, etc), or rooted in times when black were just not cast as intelligent agents (It's a Wonderful Life and A Christmas Carol, etc). But, you may be right, as I'm definitely lacking a good cinematic history of these things.
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| | | | | 80. Re: the MMN, Reloaded | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Fri 16 May 10:34am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 77 | | | | | |
It isn't really important whether there are mystical portrayals of whites, but whether there are positive portrayals of blacks that don't fall into the MMN category. When Asian women started getting positive roles, they were always news anchors. So Asian women can be evil seductresses, the perfectly subservient mate, or journalists? Boy was that weird.
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 82. Re: the MMN, Reloaded | | | | by CaptainLiberal | | | | at Fri 16 May 10:38am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 77 | | | | | |
What I find astonishing is the idea that any of this is even remotely new. The mysterious stranger meme in writing is as old as writing itself. It plays a few different ways. The mysterious stranger is usually either an agent of the divine or an agent of the demonic, and the results of the story follow the choice.
There have been any number of mysterious stranger television shows, which use him as a frame to tell standard dramatic stories. Highway to Heaven was one of these, and so was The Millionaire, although his mystical power was money. I will say that I can only think f a single instance where the mysterious stranger is a woman, and that's Touched by an Angel.
For a modern take, check out Hearts in Atlantis, where the crusty old man Ted Brautigan comes into a young boy's life and teaches him about the wonders available in the world before disappearing.
Stephen King's work is full of mysterious strangers, and he's been beaten on for the fact that some of them are black, like Dick Halloran in the Shining and Mother Abigail in The Stand. But they neglect characters like Brautigan in Hearts and even Roland in Drawing of the Three (although it's told from his POV, Roland is clearly a mysterious stranger who saves Eddie and Susanah).
Every dream turns into something on a T-shirt -- Shriekback
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| | | | | 98. Re: the review | | | | by xTrapL8 | | | | at Fri 16 May 12:22pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 63 | | | | | |
I agree with you wholeheartedly, by the way, I just wanted to point out that other reviewers were getting hung up on the race thing, too.
and what the hell is this supposed to mean? "Keanu being in perpetual racial flux" — the man's white as rice during the entire movie!! it's Keanu Reeves. he was barely tan in Point Break for f*ks sake.
Keanu comes across as very white in the Matrix, for sure, and since his acting is generally so wooden, he's perceived as a "white" actor, but he was born in Beirut and is of Chinese/Hawaiian/English background, spent part of his childhood in Australia and is a Canadian citizen! I don't know if that all makes him white, but since race is a cultural not biological construct, it would be easier just to call him human (although Dogstar might disqualify him from this).
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones." -- John Cage
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| | | | | 108. little wooden boy: pine or oak? | | | | by coquito | | | | at Fri 16 May 1:19pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 98 | | | | | |
i suppose i might've confused Keanu the "actor" (i prefer the term "vessel," in his case) with the character he was playing.
i figured the reviewer meant that keanu, in the movie, (as Neo) is "in perpetual racial flux" which is ridiculous. i agree with you wholeheartedly as well, in that race is a cultural as opposed to biological construct (and even if a biological kernel is found, it doesn't change the fact that our perception of race is grounded in cultural factors).
i disagree with the poster downstream that keanu is "visibly" eurasian, then again, i know few eurasian people and am much less sensitive to such distinctions. in the Matrix, as Neo, he's "white." period. (i'd explain that, but it would take awhile...) he's not a dark-skinned person (which is one of the things the reviewer was harping on, dark skin) and i think any non-anglo features he may have are slight and easily escape notice.
on the other hand, keanu the actor may well be "in racial flux" (like Tiger Woods??) but that'd be a different story. one i wouldn't much care about ;)
In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods -- learned Hindu scholar
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| | | | | 113. Re: little wooden boy: pine or oak? | | | | by xTrapL8 | | | | at Fri 16 May 2:40pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 108 | | | | | |
Heh. I'm still smiling at your subject header.
Almost every sentence written in this thread could spark another conversation (eg. the race as culture idea).
You might be right that the reviewer was referring to Neo the character, not Keano the "actor" (note scare quotes, heh).
Interestingly (another offshoot), the Eurasian "look" is quite common here in the Vancouver area (think of Paul Kariya of the Anaheim Mighty Ducks, who was born in North Van, and someone like the singer David Usher of Vancouver band Moist, who I believe is Thai and English) so I'm kind of sensitized to it (is that the right word? Socialized, maybe?) and have always seen Keanu Reeves in that light. But, yeah, your point still stands that people with this ethnic mix don't generally have very brown skin.
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones." -- John Cage
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| | | | | 118. OT: Ray Lewis | | | | by Omnivore | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:07pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 67 | | | | | |
Ray Lewis — stabby football player
Not to nitpick, but you've gotten your "criminally involved NFL players" a bit mixed up. Ray Lewis got in trouble because he was a witness at a shooting outside a strip club and then sped away in his limousine and, at first, wouldn't rat out his associates. He ended up pleading guilty to a misdemeanor and singing like a canary, however, and seems to have generally been forgiven by the football-viewing public.
The football player that "got all stabby" (i.e., killed his pregnant girlfriend) was Rae Carruth.
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| | | | | 132. Re: the MMN, Reloaded | | | | by ceylon | | | | at Sat 17 May 5:59pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 50 | | | | | |
Also in the first movie the two "home grown" Zion humans were brown/black. I don't remember who the actors were or their names, and I don't feel particularly inclined to look it up on IMDB. The larger of the two, was most definitely black and had no special powers, his younger 'brother' was not as dark, but also could be seen as black or of arab or possibly a dark-latino descent. So they aren't all MMN. Those guys had no special "powers".
Ceylon
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| | | | | 133. Re: the MMN, Reloaded | | | | by MC Nally | | | | at Sat 17 May 6:01pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 82 | | | | | |
I will say that I can only think of a single instance where the mysterious stranger is a woman, and that's Touched by an Angel.
If you're talking only about television you might be correct. I'd have to think about it for a while, first..
However, folklore is full of female instances of the Mysterious Stranger. "Cinderella" is the story which springs most rapidly to mind, but you can find instances going way back, often of a female spirit or deity giving special guidance to a hero (e.g. Athena loaning Perseus the Aegis so he could slay Medusa to fulfill his quest..)
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| | | | | 49. Re: to make ammends | | | | by LevelOrange | | | | at Fri 16 May 7:48am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 2 | | | | | |
Complicating this kind of racial exegesis, of course, is the fact that Keanu Reeves is visibly Eurasian. I'm not even gonna touch the potential high-theory implications of that one.
LevelOrange,
who believes that people who actively seek reasons to feel offended rarely come away empty-handed...
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| | | | | | 4. The Dermatrix | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Thu 15 May 8:40am | score of 1 | | | | | | |
In the SubQ, I suggested waiting for the Dermatrix to come online so it could be added as a link. It is now up. Looking at it, it is quite a silly waste of time, and almost entirely irrelevant, but more amusing than you might think.
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | | 22. Re: The Dermatrix | | | | by CoFenchurch | | | | at Thu 15 May 1:13pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 4 | | | | | |
To me, it wasn't even an amusing waste of time--- I got a neverending loop of runtime error windows, and a bazillion popups. I had to kill the IE group to get rid of the pop-ups, and kill the dermatrix window in task manager. Not fun.
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| | | | | 25. Re: The Dermatrix | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Thu 15 May 1:48pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 22 | | | | | |
Huh, works for me just fine. (And I only got the intended windows.) Try this. If that doesn't work, you could go to www.skinema.com manually and just follow two links. If that now seems like a complete waste of time, I'll tell you what it turned to be: pretty much a rundown of the various skin conditions, mainly acne scars and baldness, the characters have and what they mean in the film, amusingly presented.
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 29. Re: The Dermatrix | | | | by CoFenchurch | | | | at Thu 15 May 2:02pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 25 | | | | | |
Actually, it's that Dermatrix Intro page that gives my browser fits. My hubby the support tech/computer guru says it's latency issues due to the total fucknozzletry that is DirecPC. (Our area is supposed to get Cable Internet next month. Given how these things usually work, that means it MIGHT be ready by the time in November that our DirectPC Contract is up. DSL is so far off as to be laughable.)
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| | | | | | 5. That's Not All, Folks. | | | | by iarnuocon |  | | | at Thu 15 May 9:07am | score of 5 funny | | | | | | |
Matrix: Reloaded may be offensive to albinoes, but:
X-Men 2 offends muslims.
and christians.
Bubble Boy was offensive to people with severely compromised immune defenses (and anyone with two neurons rubbing together, but that's a different story.)
And of course, Tolkien's Middle Earth is racist.
What can we learn from this?
1. Some people have waaay too much time on their hands.
2. A brilliant movie such as Blazing Saddles would probably never be allowed to be made today.
3. Some people don't know what "unfairly stereotyped" means. For instance, I really wasn't under the impression that all albinoes are hyper-quick, cool-looking martial arts experts living (or un-living) in a software generated version of reality. But maybe I'm in the minority here.
In short, if you're a thin-skinned, easily offended pantywaist who is afraid your worldview will be forever altered by any contact with a viewpoint other than your own, maybe you shouldn't be going to see R-rated movies.
insanus omnis furere credit ceteros... ecce signum
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| | | | | | 12. Re: That's Not All, Folks. | | | | by bigstevec | | | | at Thu 15 May 9:44am | score of 4 funny | | in reply to comment 5 | | | | | |
if you're a thin-skinned, easily offended pantywaist who is afraid your worldview will be forever altered by any contact with a viewpoint other than your own...
As a pantywaist, I'm offended at your portraying us as thin-skinned and easily offended.
"These are my principles. If you do not like them, I have others." Groucho Marx
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| | | | | 13. Re: That's Not All, Folks. | | | | by stankow | | | | at Thu 15 May 9:49am | score of 2 intriguing | | in reply to comment 5 | | | | | |
2. A brilliant movie such as Blazing Saddles would probably never be allowed to be made today. Mel Brooks often tells about a meeting he had with the studio people after delivering his final cut. They gave him a long list of complaints ("Less farting," "Less 'nigger,'" etc.), and he dutifully wrote down all of their complaints. And then, being Mel Brooks, didn't change a thing. He relates with particular relish how the same studio people came to him after the premiere and raved about how great it was.
The vast majority of studio executives won't stand up to strong-willed talent. If Spielberg wants to make his villains prancing, lisping homosexuals who introduce themselves by saying, "We are tho evil and gay!", then Spielberg is going to have those villains. The problem is that most movies these days aren't the result of strong-willed talent — they're the result of market research and are basically drafted by those same studio execs who find reasonably talented pieceworkers to act like writers and directors (cf. XXX). These pieceworkers are expressly not strong-willed artists who are willing to stand up for the integrity of their art, especially since it's not theirs to begin with.
So when you have this committee of people making a movie, the odds are much higher that at least one of those people is going to be aware of things like how people with albinism dislike being made fun of and actually be concerned about how it would affect the movie (more accurately, how it would affect the box office).
In short, if you're a thin-skinned, easily offended pantywaist who is afraid your worldview will be forever altered by any contact with a viewpoint other than your own, maybe you shouldn't be going to see R-rated movies. Or at least, shouldn't be making them.
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| | | | | 21. Gee, Thtephen, You're Tho Brilliant. | | | | by iarnuocon | | | | at Thu 15 May 1:06pm | score of 1.5 interesting | | in reply to comment 13 | | | | | |
I agree with the direction of your analysis. But it's not so obvious that studio execs will cave to talent that is simply stong-willed. I think it's more a matter of the director being strong-willed, having a proven track-record of success, and having the ability to go cut a deal wherever he (or she) feels like it. So Spielberg's vision of gay nazi villains is safe, but a less notable director's attempt to make a movie that, say, lampooned the president of the US as a dim-witted, venal, religious fanatic who wants to personally throw the switch at an execution, while simultaneously raising two daughters whose morals are looser than a XXXtra large pair of drawstring pants would get the kibosh pretty quick-- no matter HOW funny it may be. (Mind you, I'm just speaking hypothetically, here. I have no reason to believe that anyone would see such a movie as a comedy. OK, put down those torches. It was just a joke...)
You hit the nail on the head when you state movies are basically made by committee, these days. I wonder whether there will be room for movies as an art form, as opposed to a commodity, in the future? Can anyone think of present day directors (besides Spielberg) who could reasonably be identified as auteur/artiste? Maybe Tarantino (or are his movies too commercial?) Atom Egoyan?
insanus omnis furere credit ceteros... ecce signum
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| | | | | 23. Re: Gee, Thtephen, You're Tho Brilliant. | | | | by stankow | | | | at Thu 15 May 1:22pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 21 | | | | | |
Your example is a good one, but bear in mind that Edward Norton is no shrinking violet. I always figured that was a battle between strong-willed director and strong-willed actor, with the studio letting themselves take the hits on Norton's behalf (because "Tony Scott" on the marquee can't open a movie the way "Edward Norton" can).
And this is, of course, all based on selling the movie. In your example, if the studio bought the idea, a strong-willed director/writer/star would be able to tell the studio people to go fuck themselves if they said, "Gee, can we make the president just a little less dim-witted?"
Present-day auteurs? M. Night Shyamalan and P.T. Anderson — if they can get Signs and Magnolia made, then it's clear that no one is looking over their shoulders and saying, "Um, you could probably trim this down a little. Or possibly insert an actual plot."
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| | | | | 57. Re: Gee, Thtephen, You're Tho Brilliant. | | | | by moxen | | | | at Fri 16 May 8:31am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 21 | | | | | |
Can anyone think of present day directors (besides Spielberg) who could reasonably be identified as auteur/artiste?
Almodovar? Abbas Kiarostami? Wong Kar-Wei? Where exactly are you looking for pure art movies? You won't find many at the local cineplex-- they're all going to be commercially motivated.
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| | | | | 89. Re: Gee, Thtephen, You're Tho Brilliant. | | | | by ibuck | | | | at Fri 16 May 11:10am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 21 | | | | | |
Can anyone think of present day directors (besides Spielberg) who could reasonably be identified as auteur/artiste?
I'd say that's a pretty big list, and I wouldn't even necessarily put Spielberg on it (witness the messes his last two films were, largely because I think he was catering to forces not within his own head...I think he's trying to please the people, not his muse...AI, while flawed, was better because I think the auteurial spirit of Kubrick was still looking over his shoulder; but I digress).
In addition to those already mentioned, off the top of my head:
The Coen Brothers
Michael Moore (documentarians are artists, too, dammit!)
Wes Anderson
Todd Solondz
Terry Gilliam
Steven Soderberg (taking into account the fact that he subverts his will on his commercial projects for the specific purpose of funding his auteur projects)
David Fincher
Woody Allen
Martin Scorcese
Jan Svankmajer
Alejandro Amenabar (though admittedly, he might be moving away from auteur status)
Spike Jonze
Todd Haynes
Lynne Ramsay
Harmony Korine (yeah, I hate the pretentious little fucker, too, but he is admirably attached to his own vision)
Jim Jarmusch
David Lynch
Hal Hartley
Lars von Trier
Spike Lee
David Cronenberg
Not to mention warhorses who don't get so much attention anymore, but are still making great, if sometimes underappreciated films like Jean-Luc Godard, Werner Herzog, Roman Polanski (we'll just pretend like The Ninth Gate never happened), Wim Wenders, Robert Altman, Ken Loach.
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| | | | | 105. Re: Gee, Thtephen, You're Tho Brilliant. | | | | by ibuck | | | | at Fri 16 May 1:02pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 100 | | | | | |
You know, I almost included Waters, but I'm still stinging from Cecil B. Demented. Then again, this list is of auteurs, regardless of the quality of their films. If I include Harmony Korine on there, John Waters should certainly be there, no matter what kind of steaming pile of crap Demented was.
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| | | | | 72. Re: That's Not All, Folks. | | | | by CaptainLiberal | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:52am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 15 | | | | | |
This is a bizarre one, because the only person I can think they're talking about is Nightcrawler. He's the only "villain" who shows up early in the movie, and, of course, he's not a villain at all, nor is he muslim. I'd like to see the ring just to know who they're talking about for sure.
I could see him wearing an Allah ring, but then again, he also carved angelic writing all over his skin to stave off his own evil, so I'm pretty sure the ring doesn't mean what they think it means.
Every dream turns into something on a T-shirt -- Shriekback
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| | | | | 91. Re: That's Not All, Folks. | | | | by coquito | | | | at Fri 16 May 11:22am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 72 | | | | | |
actually, this article says that Stryker is the character wearing the ring with "the word Allah written in Arabic script."
i thought this discussion shoulda been added to the writeup, by the way.
In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods -- learned Hindu scholar
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| | | | | 136. Re: That's Not All, Folks. | | | | by wowmo | | | | at Sat 17 May 7:44pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 5 | | | | | |
This is the usual ignorant argument those who have nothing to be offended take. Your missing the larger point — it isn't about any one single stereotypical depiction in a film, but the subtle associations coming from all angles that are indicative of the "language" under which society relates. Are you throwing out all film theory regarding the depiction of women and minorities in film? As a filmmaker myself, this is a very real problem — narrative manages to reduce the world to story and archetypes which are a poor reflection of the world itself. Educating viewers about why this is, at least is a start to helping them be made aware of the problematic depictions of some groups — and what's so bad about that?
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| | | | | 141. Attaboy! | | | | by iarnuocon | | | | at Mon 19 May 6:01am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 136 | | | | | |
Way to jump in there days late and start calling people ignorant, bucko!
I get the point very well, thank you very much. And who said I was throwing out all film theory regarding anything (or is this simply your straw-man argument to help you avoid asking any of the questions I've asked in this thread)? If you're a filmmaker, then I would expect you to at the very least have some inkling as to possible answers.
But you allude to the true situation-- namely that narrative reduces the world to story and archetypes which are a poor reflection of the real world. This sounds remarkably like what I've said upthread... that in order to convey a freight of information in a format the leaves a film watchable, choices are made to convey certain information through stereotypical images. Therefore, without any answers as to how to avoid this problem (and education after the fact, while well and good, fails to be an adequate answer) it is entirely likely that film will continue to offend various out groups. The fact that such outgroups are shrinking both in number and in size seems to me to be a trend in the right direction.
What's so bad about "education" of the sort linked to is that such lists appear to be inflated in order to make the problem appear to be worse than it is. So in that way we see included as negative depictions of albinos roles which have nothing to do with albinism: vampires, troglodytes, people who are simply "pale." I'm surprised that the list makers simply didn't include any film that contains a corpse-- The Big Chill or Twin Peaks, for example. And the conclusion that people are unable to distinguish fantasy from reality in depictions of outrageous fantasy creatures such as the "uberMorlock" or the children of Village of the Damned is problematic. This makes the "outrage" seem contrived, and less important than it potentially is. That's what's so bad about that.
So rather than dismissing arguments which raise these points as "ignorant," perhaps you'd care to utilize your big brain to come up with answers to the the questions, or even suggestions at a direction to take to ameliorate the problem. It's either that or admit that the problem is inherent and intractable in filmmaking as an art. Take your pick.
insanus omnis furere credit ceteros... ecce signum
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| | | | | | 6. According to a news item I read somewhere... | | | | by MAYORBOB | | | | at Thu 15 May 9:08am | score of 1 | | | | | | |
...but, unfortunately have been unable to find an internet cite for, this guy and his brother, are both a bit upset about the characters in Matrix Reloaded. Of course, he did achieve a modicum of success with an album which, although possessing certain horror themes, did have a certain droll and kitsch quality about it.
Tending to final details.
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| | | | | | | | | | 9. identifying with your inner villain | | | | by greta | | | | at Thu 15 May 9:36am | score of 1.5 brilliant | | | | | | |
As a stepmother, I am offended that the Brothers Grimm has wicked stepmothers in fairy tales and that Disney turns them into movies that cast people like me in a bad light. Therefore I am starting a boycott of Cinderella, Snow White, Hansel and Gretel, and any other story featuring stepmothers as the villain. Who's with me?!
Truthfully, it doesn't bother me in slightest. It also doesn't bother me when women are "villains" in stories — I think it's kind of cool, better than being, say, a damsel in distress or a goofy sidekick. Villains are what make a story interesting — a good villain is gold in a movie. Who didn't love Darth Vader, deep down?
But I'm speaking as one who was never part of a minority demographic. I may have thought differently if I were.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, I'm a dumbass
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| | | | | | 16. Re: identifying with your inner villain | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Thu 15 May 10:40am | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 9 | | | | | |
You're not reading the movies very closely. It isn't as simple as "it is bad when X is portrayed as the villian." It would be great if there were more female villians. But villians of the same sort as male villians, not Asian dragon-ladies or Glenn-Close-in-Fatal-Attraction psychos. Women aren't seen as having agency, which is why there aren't as many female villians.
It is because of the specific differences between sexism and racism (or anti-albinoism) that the comparison to female villians doesn't hold. Read coquito's excellent post above about the magic mystical negro. Albinos are very consistently portrayed as either evil, freakish (see Powder), or feeble. Here, we have two of the three. It is hardly a victory that they aren't as feeble as other portrayals. At one point in time, though, you could have looked at a female role that was horribly sexist, and you could have said it was a victory that the role had agency instead of passivity. But that was because lack of agency was such an overwhelming aspect of sexism at that time.
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 24. I don't buy it. | | | | by iarnuocon |  | | | at Thu 15 May 1:45pm | score of 3 scholarly | | in reply to comment 16 | | | | | |
Albinos are very consistently portrayed as either evil, freakish (see Powder), or feeble. Maybe I'm just not watching enough B-grade sci-fi, but I can't recall too many vehicles that portrayed albinos as anything. Maybe you could enlighten us with a rundown of various properties that were produced with albinos in any kind of role?
A real question arises as to what constitutes an acceptable form for a villain to take. Movies are a visual form of communication. Generally speaking, movie-makers will, when the time calls for some otherworldly villain, rely on some visual characteristic that identifies the villain as somehow other than you or I (most especially in sci-fi movies.) Perhaps that's a shortcut that shouldn't be relied on as much, but then, there you have it. When you're trying to convey a boatload of information, sometimes shortcuts let you concentrate on more important aspects of the film.
Visual effects are light-years superior to what they were 40 years ago. Back then a director would have simply slapped a funny helmet on the bad guy, or made him always wear a black hat, or a monocle. Today, directors are trying to give their works the air of genuine reality by eschewing such props. As such, they turn to arguably subtler means of differentiation. But look what happens when something like Fellowship of the Ring comes out. We make some convincingly disgusting, yet real looking orcs, and suddenly we're worrying whether those orcs look too Negroid in features. Is that a slur? Should we be offended? Saruman the White becomes Saruman of Many Colors. And he belongs to a society composed solely of males. Is that subtle gay-bashing? What are the Wachowski brothers trying to say about albinos in Matrix: Reloaded? Is X-Men 2's Stryker really a disguised muslim? By making Magneto a bad guy and a jew, is the director being anti-semitic? Is there some Israeli/Palestinian undercurrent to the X-Men?
The problem is that when we get so distracted by (mis)perceived racism or sexism in movies, we lose sight of actual real-world racism and sexism. I mean it's OK to wonder whether there may be some subtle cultural undercurrent behind someone's choice about what constitutes a villain, but should we be focussing on that to the exclusion of protesting actual blatant racism and sexism?
There is such a thing as over-analyzing popular entertainment. Anyone who would get the idea that people suffering albinism are freaky, feeble, evil murderers/martial artist software programs/telekinetic lightning boys because of films he's seen has bigger problems than the people who have allegedly been consistently misportrayed as such.
So what's the solution? Rather than the Brothers being pale, ghostly kick-ass incarnations, what should they have been? If we make them dark, we're anti-african American. Give them beards, we're anti-arab. I'm surprised no one has bitched about the dreadlocks. Maybe we should have left them as middle-aged corporate suit-wearing white guys. They're everybody's assholes. oh, wait...
Here's an idea. Unless the bias is gross enough to be readily identified as bias, how 'bout we just let movies be entertainment, and assign them the importance they're due... namely, being entertainment.
insanus omnis furere credit ceteros... ecce signum
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| | | | | 27. Re: I don't buy it. | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Thu 15 May 1:59pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 24 | | | | | |
Maybe I'm just not watching enough B-grade sci-fi, but I can't recall too many vehicles that portrayed albinos as anything. Maybe you could enlighten us with a rundown of various properties that were produced with albinos in any kind of role? There are two lists linked in the write-up.Generally speaking, movie-makers will, when the time calls for some otherworldly villain, rely on some visual characteristic that identifies the villain as somehow other than you or I (most especially in sci-fi movies.) Very often, that is precisely the problem for groups of people that are "somehow other than you and I." We make some convincingly disgusting, yet real looking orcs, and suddenly we're worrying whether those orcs look too Negroid in features. Is that a slur? Should we be offended? Saruman the White becomes Saruman of Many Colors. God, talk about hyper-sensitive. He becomes Saruman of many colors in the books, too. (Admittedly my recollection of the books is heavily filtered through the game angband, so I don't recall precisely.) And there are lots of ways to imagine disgusting. If the only way you can picture disgusting happens to look like a black person, then yeah, that's really damn racist.
In response to the rest of your comment, I think you just grossly underestimate the power such depictions have. (Possibly because you don't read them closely, or you would be able to answer some of the other questions you pose quite easily.)
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 31. look at me, i'm a geek. | | | | by coquito | | | | at Thu 15 May 2:10pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 24 | | | | | |
By making Magneto a bad guy and a jew, is the director being anti-semitic? Is there some Israeli/Palestinian undercurrent to the X-Men?
ok, you were being sarcastic and all, but before anyone gets in a huff, Magneto really is jewish (that is, his character in the comics is a jew from, i believe, Poland, who survived/escaped a Nazi prison camp). there is, to my knowledge, no israeli/palestinian anything in X-Men, though the fact that Magneto narrowly evaded genocide and yet he believes (or has believed at times) it is the only way to deal with humans is some kind of literary device or other. over the years, a few Marvel characters have been jewish, which kinda makes sense seeing as how Stan, Jack, and alot of the rest of the crew were too.
In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods -- learned Hindu scholar
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| | | | | 96. Re: I don't buy it. | | | | by moominpapa | | | | at Fri 16 May 12:07pm | score of 1.5 witty | | in reply to comment 24 | | | | | |
Here's an idea. Unless the bias is gross enough to be readily identified as bias, how 'bout we just let movies be entertainment, and assign them the importance they're due... namely, being entertainment.
...and let the pomo analysts sort it out in 2 years when "Reloading the Repressed — The Matrix Trilogy as Signifier and Bellwhether in Race and Gender Relations" is offered at Colombia for three credits a semester.
... so I GAFB - Another Freakin' Blog
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| | | | | 104. So What Are the Answers? | | | | by iarnuocon | | | | at Fri 16 May 12:57pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 27 | | | | | |
There are two lists linked in the write-up. You're right. My mistake for not paying closer attention. Of course, the first link is less a list of portrayals in movies than a forum for people to comment on portrayals in movies. Certainly I disagree with some aspects of the second list. The inclusion of Mr. Joshua from Lethal Weapon simply because he's pale, Mel Gibson calls him an "albino jackrabbit son-of-a-bitch" seems to be stretching the point quite a bit. Likewise the designation of Powder as a negatively stereotypical film, when in actuality it's using that stereotype to criticise unfair stereotyping and ostracizing of non-mainstream members of society. And of course other designated works such as japanese anime (with a complete lack of understanding of the cultural differences and subtext running through the genre) or the Simpsons Halloween Special (which, in a lefthanded way comments negatively on perceived stereotypes about albinos without saying anything directly negative about albinos, per se) are to some extent criticised in a way that could be viewed as hypersensitive. The horrible 70s adaptation of Richard Matheson's I Am Legend, which wound up being titled the Omega Man, perhaps deserves its own thread. The case can be made against the film, but not necessarily the book.
Perhaps the NOAH has a point in highlighting the conflation of albinism with images of cave-dwellers, vampires, etc., but I fail to see this as being immediately detrimental to albinos in general. In those particular instances we are not seeing albinos, but fantasy creatures. Unless we are to believe that people are incapable of differentiating between fantasy and reality, how could those portrayals translate into real world actions? However, I totally agree with their disgust at portrayals in such movies as Stick, Foul Play, The Firm, etc.; which use albinism as a sensationalist distancing device which has little relevance to the plot. The real problem is that these movies capitalize on an already prevalent feeling associated with albinos (and perpetuated through ignorance) in order to avoid having to do relatively easy plot work.
This is different from a film like the Matrix, which stylistically is predicated on visual stereotyping, but in which visual stereotypes are not primarily designed to capitalize on real world prejudices. So for instance the Matrix and Matrix: Reloaded wind up turning some conventions on their heads. In the Matrix, the good guys wear black. The bad guys wear suits. The good guys have a Goth fashion sense. The average person can transform into a suit-wearing bad guy at any time. Living underground is warm and human. Living on the surface is cold and alien. Now you throw in a villain that is located somewhere between the two extremes and what do you get? A Gothic-style bad guy, but in white. Like clear down to skin color. Is this meant to say anything about albinos? I'm hard pressed to see it as anything but a huge stretch to claim that it is.
Very often, that is precisely the problem for groups of people that are "somehow other than you and I." But I notice that you choose not to answer the question about what could possibly be substituted to fulfill this need for visual identification. Do you have an answer? Is there an answer? Because without an answer it is very likely that films will continue to be made in this fashion.
God, talk about hyper-sensitive. No, simply making a point as to how far you can take this kind of thing.
If the only way you can picture disgusting happens to look like a black person, then yeah, that's really damn racist. The problem is that in the movie the orcs don't look like black people. It's a stretch to claim they do. It becomes a question of "what's actually present in the film, and what is the result of hypersensitivity?" When someone has to "read closely" what's in a fantasy film in order to concoct a story about it's inherent racism, that's hypersensitivity on the part of the viewer, not racism on the part of the filmmaker.
In response to the rest of your comment, I think you just grossly underestimate the power such depictions have. As one of the links you provided pointed out, there are only 18,000 individuals in America suffering from hypopigmentation (and not even full-blown albinism). And while certainly films that directly exploit the albinism stereotype for cheap thrills (such as Stick, Foul Play, etc.) should be criticised for such use, it doesn't directly follow that other films in which albinism plays a structural part, or in which nothing particularly negative is being said about albinism deserve the same level of condemnation or approbation. I think you grossly overestimate the power such depictions have, possibly because you read movies too closely. Obviously I read the movies less closely than you do, or I wouldn't have posed the questions I did. You purport to have answers to those questions. Supply them. Enlighten me.
What constitutes an acceptable form for a villain?
read the entire comment...
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| | | | | 107. Me? Sarcastic? | | | | by iarnuocon | | | | at Fri 16 May 1:15pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 31 | | | | | |
Look, thanks for letting people know that Magneto "actually" is jewish. But I'm entirely serious about the criticism that X2 took for being anti-semitic. I read it in the hard copy version of Atlanta's newspaper when I was down there a couple of weeks ago. It was a small sidebar story that claimed X2 was taking hits as being anti-semitic because the "main villain" Magneto is jewish. No lie.
Combine that with Stryker's supposed "muslim" ring and mix liberally with hypersensitivity: voila! One Palestinian/Israeli subtext.
Do I believe that's really what's going on? No. But when someone gets so up in arms as to critique a film because the orcs look too black, the aliens look too albino, and the mutants support evolution versus creationism, it's only a short amount of time before some slack-jawed, credulous pedant begins expounding on "The Semiotics of X-Men 2 and its Implications for Israeli Security in a Post-Iraq Worldview."
insanus omnis furere credit ceteros... ecce signum
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| | | | | 116. Re: So What Are the Answers? | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Fri 16 May 5:08pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 104 | | | | | |
You're right. My mistake for not paying closer attention. Of course, the first link is less a list of portrayals in movies than a forum for people to comment on portrayals in movies. You're right; this time it's mistake. The link to that forum, however, contains a link to a list at the same site. You might note on that list, that some of the roles you describe as merely pale are listed in the credits as albinos or actually are albinos. And I think you're misreading the criticism of some of the others, especially Powder. Powder is about a freak and it criticizes the ostracizing of the freak. But there in no reason they had to make him an albino. Albino is used as shorthand for freak, reinforcing the notion that albinos are freaks. Hardly straightforward or unequivocably awful, but deserving of the very criticism made. Is it possible that when someone says, "that's a prejudiced representation," that you're hypersensitive to the criticism?
Now, your reading of the Matrix: Rl is much closer than your analyses of the other movies. You are right about some of the elements that are, in fact, relevant. However, it doesn't change the fact that there are no positive representations of albinos and that this is one more negative representation. (And even within your reading, I doubt that there aren't alternatives. Though I hadn't until just now remembered there was a goth-in-white character in the first one who might have limited things — also challenging your reading.) When someone has to "read closely" what's in a fantasy film in order to concoct a story about it's inherent racism, that's hypersensitivity on the part of the viewer, not racism on the part of the filmmaker. No, it's subtle racism on the part of the filmmaker. Often some people are better or worse at spotting such elements. (Often the group being stereotyped is sensitive to it because they live in a world that consistently tells them they're inferior in some way, which can have strong effects on the psyche.) But that doesn't mean they don't echo and reinforce racism in society. No, I'm not talking about something on the order of lynching black people. Rather, I'm talking about the kind of racism like when a job interviewer sits lets close to the applicant, subtly altering the dynamics of the interview, and making it less likely that that applicant will be chosen. Does that mean that the interviewer is likely to go lynch someone? No. Does it result in black people getting even fewer jobs? Yes.
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 123. Anything's Possible | | | | by iarnuocon | | | | at Sat 17 May 1:03am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 116 | | | | | |
Is it possible that when someone says, "that's a prejudiced representation," that you're hypersensitive to the criticism? Sure, it's possible. But I don't believe that's what's going on. I simply don't have that much invested it. A more likely explanation is that when confronted with an argument such as "the distance at which the interviewer sits from the applicant reveals a bias that prevents the applicant from getting a job," I'm the kind of person who thinks maybe too much is being read into the situation.
I think you're misreading the criticism of some of the others, especially Powder. Powder is about a freak and it criticizes the ostracizing of the freak. But there in no reason they had to make him an albino. Albino is used as shorthand for freak, reinforcing the notion that albinos are freaks. Naturally... just as I think you're misreading said criticism. Or rather the critiques presented are misreadings of some of the films. Powder is an especially good example. As a hypothetical example, suppose we made an allegorical film about ostracism and racism, and put an african-american in the lead. Would it be a negative portrayal solely because the lead character is black? Doubtful. It's hard to say that the depiction of Jeremy Reed in Powder is reinforcing negative stereotypes of albinos when Jeremy Reed's albinism is a foil for criticism of the very thing you say is being reinforced by the film. Powder says the unfair stereotyping of Reed is wrong. That's the whole thrust of the film. To then say, "Well, ignore the whole message of the film, and what we're left with is a negative stereotype." It's only a negative stereotype when divorced from the very context which gives it meaning. Therefore I think the criticism is overblown. It's possible that the film would have been as strong if the lead character were black, or physically challenged, or openly gay (in fact the portrayal of Powder has some ambiguous sexual undertones to it for precisely this reason, I think.) In order for the problem of ostracism based on physical appearance to be challenged, it's necessary for the main character to be immediately visually identifiable as different. It's essential to the message of the film... namely that negative attitudes based mainly on appearance cause us to lose sight of the true value of the person. If your focus on the film is so narrow that you miss the entire thrust of the main message of the film, then I think this can safely be argued to be hypersensitivity.
However, it doesn't change the fact that there are no positive representations of albinos and that this is one more negative representation. You overstate your case. For instance the portrayal of an albino in Disturbing Behaviors, 1998 is listed as a positive portrayal. I also find it somewhat interesting that the list from your first link lumps together anyone with light hair or nordic features (and even roles such as vampires, zombies, and creatures from outer space) as depictions of "albinos"-- even when such roles are not especially singled out as instances of albinism in either the credits or the story. Hence as disparate characters as Roy Batty (Blade Runner); the "Nordic Man" (The Firm); Willem Dafoe, Klaus Kinski, Gary Oldman, and Max Schreck as vampires; Death (The Seventh Seal); Mr. Joshua (Lethal Weapon); and Sir Laurence Olivier as Hamlet (Hamlet) are noted as negative portrayals of albinism-- despite the fact that none are explicitly denoted as albinos nor have any characteristics that would identify them as albinos beyond pale skin and light hair (and especially in the movies listed that are black and white rendering estimations of the level of albinism displayed rather moot.)
your reading of the Matrix: Rl is much closer than your analyses of the other movies... (And even within your reading, I doubt that there aren't alternatives. Though I hadn't until just now remembered there was a goth-in-white character in the first one who might have limited things — also challenging your reading.) I haven't said that other readings aren't possible, only that this is my reading of it. The character Switch in Matrix is sort of interesting. She's the goth-in-white character. Note also that she's the first of the crew to be killed by the traitor. And under the broadly generalised rules of either of your lists could be included as a portrayal of an albino, since she has pale skin and light hair. (Well, what do you know. On checking deeper in the links under your first list, I note that it actually DOES characterize Switch as an albino. see #4.) At any rate, I don't think Switch's portrayal in the film necessarily negates the general visual themes running through the movie. But these kinds of interpretations are left largely to each individual viewer.
The fact that human beings are hardwired to seek patterns and socially wired to discriminate between an ing roup (those like us) and an out group (those not like us) will likely ensure that a "subtle" level of bias will color allread the entire comment...
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| | | | | 134. Re: Anything's Possible | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Sat 17 May 6:27pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 123 | | | | | |
A more likely explanation is that when confronted with an argument such as "the distance at which the interviewer sits from the applicant reveals a bias that prevents the applicant from getting a job," I'm the kind of person who thinks maybe too much is being read into the situation. It has been demonstrated that that happens. The interviewer treats African Americans differently than Anglo Americans. The result is Anglos get more jobs (other factors accounted for). The African American isn't acting differently than the Anglo would in the same situation. It's the situation, created by the interviewer, which is different. I can't understand any other possible way to understand that phenomena than it's a subtle form of racism.
I finally saw the movie today, btw. The depiction is much worse than the impression I had gotten from the still pics I'd seen. I'm sure it isn't conscious (given other elements of the movie), but there is no question that the twins' appearance is based on albinos. Not saying I didn't enjoy the movie, or that anyone who did is wrong. But that particular element is shameful. As a hypothetical example, suppose we made an allegorical film about ostracism and racism, and put an african-american in the lead. Would it be a negative portrayal solely because the lead character is black? No. But here is the important part: being black in America is very highly correlated with experiencing racism. Unless there was a rhetorical tone such as "those damn, uppity niggers ought to just learn to live with it" that would be called realistic. Likewise, if you presented a film about albinos dealing with being ostracized, fine.
But you must have done backflips to read Powder like that. Albinos aren't more likely than others to have supernatural electromagnetic powers. It was those powers that were the focus of the movie, while albinism was a symbol of his freakishness. (Now, you could argue that the powers were a metaphorical expression of albinism, but I don't think you could support that reading.)
I'd also like to point out that the existence of one particular reading which isn't offensive isn't enough. If any reasonable reading is offensive, then the movie becomes problematic. (Stems from the theory that the meaning is produced within the audience rather than existent in the author. At times, that's problematic, but less often than the notion of given meanings.) Of course, that raises the question of how the author is to avoid problematic readings. But that's actually far easier than it might seem provided the author is aware of their own prejudices. Even if you continue to disagree, I'm sure you're now much less likely to produce any particularly offensive depictions of albinos (unless you're just an ass doing it intentionally).
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 26. Re: identifying with your inner villain | | | | by OSULugan | | | | at Thu 15 May 1:51pm | score of 2 funny | | in reply to comment 9 | | | | | |
Who didn't love Darth Vader, deep down?
Of course we all loved Darth Vader, deep down (or at least, the part of Vader that was "deep down," under the visage).
"... in Jedi, the most insulting installment, when Vader's beautiful black visage is SULLIED when he pulls of his black mask to reveal a feeble, crusty old white man!"
And God says, "No, that's not right." Yeah. Well. Whatever. You can't teach God anything.
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| | | | | | | 34. Re: To make people happy | | | | by popularsciencereader |  | | | at Thu 15 May 5:54pm | score of 0.5 irrelevant | | in reply to comment 19 | | | | | |
The standard repost to a racist who says that whites are superior to blacks is, "What do you have to say about black people with albinism?" Perhaps they should have made the heroes black people with albinism.
I've had just about enough of your sesquipedalian evasiveness.
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| | | | | 56. Re: To make people happy | | | | by Dr_MOTH | | | | at Fri 16 May 8:23am | score of 0.5 irrelevant | | in reply to comment 34 | | | | | |
That's why I've never cared much for terms like "black" and "white" to describe people. If a "black" person who is albino is lighter skinned than a "white" person with a suntan, the words lose all meaning.
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| | | | | 120. To the moderator | | | | by popularsciencereader | | | | at Fri 16 May 11:47pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 34 | | | | | |
If you'll take a moment to consider about my post again I think you'll agree that it is relevant to this discussion. If the heroes of the Matrix Reloaded had been black people with albinism the writers would not have offended albinos, and might have taught people a suitable response to racist nonsense.
I've had just about enough of your sesquipedalian evasiveness.
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| | | | | 129. OT (blacks with albinism) | | | | by Nameless Cynic | | | | at Sat 17 May 9:07am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 120 | | | | | |
(Can't find it, even on amazon.com or imdb.com)
Many years ago, blacksploitation films entered the horror market thanks to that cinematic masterpiece Blacula. And one of the least watchable films from the resultant stream of dreck was called Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Black. In it, a black doctor does the usual eeevil transformation, and becomes... gasp!... the same actor, in whiteface.
Just felt it needed to be mentioned.
Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare
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| | | | | | 20. They were cool... | | | | by Kilroy77 | | | | at Thu 15 May 12:16pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
Hey, why be offended? They were among the most interesting characters in the film. Certainly more interesting than Neo and Trinity and that very tired romantic addition to the film(s).
I was noticing how many different kinds of races where shown in the film. I thought that was kind of cool, until I noticed that everyone was nice and un-offensively thin. Evidently Zion is for rebels fighting their machine masters, and for everyone who's used a Bowflex. So therefore, me and my unused abs are offended too.
Shut up, don't forget the sunscreen, and get over yourselves. What's next? A group of morticians will be offended that Mr. Smith is showing them in a bad light. Him and all his 100 replicas(see the movie)...
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
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| | | | | | 28. That's Mighty White of You | | | | by mrwarmth | | | | at Thu 15 May 2:00pm | score of 3.5 interesting | | | | | | |
It seems deeply ingrained in our collective psyche that inward evil must have a distinctive outward sign. Whether it's being black, or gay or albino. I can't helping pointing out, though, to our albino friends that The Lord of the Rings drips from every page with albinophilia (in Tolkien's racist universe, the whiter you are, the more morally good you are, and the darker your skin is the more evil you are). So they can take comfort that they do in fact have an important positive place in modern popular culture.
Though actually, come to think of it, the group most often stigmatized in films is fat men. As Roger Ebert — himself no stranger to Twinkies — pointed out years ago, in any group scene such as men in a prison camp or on a spaceship, the fat male character will turn out to be the traitor (Jurassic Park is a good example of this).
It's rare now for homosexuality to be the outward sign of inward evil in films (Braveheart's shameless homophobia notwithstanding), though it used to be a standard trope. Though, sadly, it is still very much used that way in popular fiction, particularly mystery fiction (Kem Nunn's cult classic "Tapping the Source" is a good example).
I think what is speaking here is our primal fear that we can't know if someone is good or evil. This fear is met by the assumption that really evil people would be easy to spot.
If only that were true...
-Niall
Where is Ratko Mladic?
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| | | | | | 54. Re: That's Mighty White of You | | | | by ekr | | | | at Fri 16 May 8:19am | score of 1.5 scholarly | | in reply to comment 28 | | | | | |
Though actually, come to think of it, the group most often stigmatized in films is fat men. As Roger Ebert — himself no stranger to Twinkies — pointed out years ago, in any group scene such as men in a prison camp or on a spaceship, the fat male character will turn out to be the traitor (Jurassic Park is a good example of this).
Well, not Stalag 17.
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| | | | | 66. Re: That's Mighty White of You | | | | by Demosthenes | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:24am | score of 1.5 informative | | in reply to comment 28 | | | | | |
"(Braveheart's shameless homophobia notwithstanding)"
Well, Edward II was probably gay, but he was probably a sniviling jerk too. I don't think that Edward I hated his son so much for the homosexuality (although I imagine that he did have problems with that because of issues with producing an heir) so much as his favoritism (he appointed his lover, who, AFAIK, knew nothing about military affairs, to head up his army), lack of any military acuity (as shown at Sterling Bridge, Kent, and later at Bannockburn), vanity (he had a guy follow him around with a full length mirror), and general laziness and lack of interest in matters of state. At least, that's the impression that I got from the movie.
If you want to live like a Republican, vote for a Democrat.
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| | | | | 75. Re: That's Mighty White of You | | | | by mrwarmth | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:56am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 66 | | | | | |
I'm talking about a movie, not history. Edward II is clearly presented as a homosexual in Braveheart. He is clearly presented as something distasteful as a result of that. Indeed, this fact is the only thing both the English and Scots agree on in the movie.
-Niall
Where is Ratko Mladic?
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| | | | | 97. Re: That's Mighty White of You | | | | by Demosthenes | | | | at Fri 16 May 12:21pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 75 | | | | | |
I'm talking about the movie too. The movie portrayed Edward II with relative accuracy with regard to his sexuality, which was questionable at best in the historical record, and rumors like that don't just happen about a king.
If you want to live like a Republican, vote for a Democrat.
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| | | | | 76. Re: That's Mighty White of You | | | | by Anywhere | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:56am | score of 1.5 scholarly | | in reply to comment 28 | | | | | |
Was Braveheart really homophobic? Maybe my bisexual* high school** European history teacher was homophobic as well, but he taught us that:
1. Longshanks' son most likely was homosexual.
2. Longshanks did have his son's lover thrown from a tower.
3. Longshanks' son did end up being a weak king who was killed by his own men when they shoved a red hot poker up his ass (because spilling the blood of a king would have been a sin).
*Possibly homosexual, but he did have a wife and son.
**Before someone dismisses him as "just" a high school teacher, he did have his PhD and was probably the best teacher I had before college.
Gateway computers are pieces of shit, and their customer service is abysmal. Ask me why if you want to hear me vent.
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| | | | | 81. Re: That's Mighty White of You | | | | by Anywhere | | | | at Fri 16 May 10:36am | score of 1.5 astute | | in reply to comment 78 | | | | | |
But if the movie is an accurate representation of actual history (at least as far as the character of Edward II goes), it's not really that the movie is homophobic, it's that the society Edward II lived in was homophobic.
That, and (again, if the movie and my history teacher are to be believed) that Edward II was a weirdo who died a very unpleasant death.
Gateway computers are pieces of shit, and their customer service is abysmal. Ask me why if you want to hear me vent.
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| | | | | | 33. "I'm afraid, Dave." | | | | by advancedatheist | | | | at Thu 15 May 5:52pm | score of 2 funny | | | | | | |
Has anyone made an issue of the way Hollywood regularly portrays artificial intelligences as dangerous or malevolent?
Consider: 2001: A Space Odyssey; Colossus: The Forbin Project; Logan's Run; Blade Runner; Terminator; Terminator 2.
And now, the whole obnoxious Matrix franchise.
Of course, negatively stereotyping AI's is socially acceptable because AI's don't have feelings, are subhuman, lack souls etc.
"There was a time before reason & science when my ancestors believed in all manner of nonsense." Narim on "SG-1"
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| | | | | | 36. Re: "I'm afraid, Dave." | | | | by eduardo | | | | at Thu 15 May 6:40pm | score of 2 funny | | in reply to comment 33 | | | | | |
Fortunately we have such positive portrayals as Knight Rider's loyal (and very classy) KITT, Star Wars' C3PO and R2D2, Voyager's holographic doctor, and TNG's Lt. Commander Data.
The latter deserves special credit for shattering the "all nice robots are queer" stereotype by getting with Tasha Yar.
(Hilker was severely wounded during the writing of this comment, may his recovery be speedy and complete)
J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.
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| | | | | | 35. The Language Police | | | | by eduardo | | | | at Thu 15 May 6:13pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
For those further interested in the subject of interest groups' pressure on media of expression, I recommend a book by the brilliant Diane Ravitch (she was last night's guest on The Daily Show), called The Language Police.
Textbook publishers are guilty of self-censorship... in this polemical analysis of the anti-bias and sensitivity guidelines that govern much of today's educational publishing. Looking at lawsuits, school board hearings and private correspondence between textbook editors, Ravitch ... shows how publishers are squeezed by pressure from groups on the right (which object to depictions of disobedience, family conflict, sexuality, evolution and the supernatural) and the left (which correct for the racism and sexism of older textbooks by urging stringent controls on language and images to weed out possibly offensive stereotypes)-most publishers have quietly adopted both sets of suggestions.
You can buy this book from amazon. Coincidentally, the 15% referral fee will be forwarded to Carl for Plastic's upkeep.
J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.
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| | | | | | 48. Re: The Language Police | | | | by eduardo | | | | at Fri 16 May 7:23am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 42 | | | | | |
Plastic's Amazon account has been frozen, as the donation thread suggests. The link in my post has me as a referrer (hence the cookiepus bit in the url), meaning the fees will be directed to my account. And yes, it's entirely possible that I'd run off with the money.
J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.
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| | | | | 106. Re: The Language Police | | | | by A. H. Cretin | | | | at Fri 16 May 1:04pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 48 | | | | | |
Oh. That's what I get for not looking at the URL. As for you running off with the money, I somehow doubt you will. We generally don't agree on things here, but I think we agree quite strongly on the value of Plastic.
Will that link only work for that book, or will you still get a percentage if I go elsewhere on Amazon?
-A Humorless Cretin
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| | | | | 112. Re: The Language Police | | | | by eduardo | | | | at Fri 16 May 2:22pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 106 | | | | | |
It seems it only works for that one book. I noticed that if I click on any other link inside Amazon, the referrer string is gone (I don't know the details of how this works since I only got the idea last night.)
I can set up links for other books, of course.
J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.
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| | | | | | 39. Please... | | | | by ahalavais | | | | at Thu 15 May 8:42pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
I've been trying my damnedest to stay away from stories like this one for the past week or so, because I really, really didn't want this to be spoiled. And now, having seen the movie, I feel justified in saying:
It's a movie. Get the hell over it.
(Of course, just wait until Revolutions comes out. I, as an artificial intelligence housed in a metal casing, am gonna be mighty upset in Zion doesn't get crushed. We're talking lawsuits here.)
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| | | | | | 40. Uh... | | | | by dagnabbitt | | | | at Thu 15 May 10:52pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
I'd point out that albinism is a genetically predetermined condition which is in many ways a disability. But, then you could also say that about being black in Vermont.
Kidding aside, I noticed that this movie is heavily weighted with prominent black actors in very important roles. I think the PC police could leave this one alone; maybe it'll catch on.
I find these truths to be self-evident.
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| | | | | | 46. Who's portrayed as a villain again? | | | | by heliobacter pylori | | | | at Fri 16 May 6:35am | score of 1.5 interesting | | | | | | |
Trying to make this comment fit the topic is going to be next to impossible, so I'm going to quit trying now. But since this is probably the only time we're going to discuss villains in the Matrix in the near future, let me add this:
Did anyone notice that during the scene where the Architect is spilling the master plan to Neo, a number of historical figures appear on the myriad TV screens in the background? Well, if you haven't, look again...it's actually quite interesting, because at the very moment the Architect is describing the "atrocities" and "evil" of man's creation, the pictures flash to Adolf Hitler, and...George W. Bush.
Apparently I was the only guy in the theater that noticed this. But just you wait until it hits the mainstream media...the backlash should be great fun!
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| | | | | | 47. Re: Who's portrayed as a villain again? | | | | by Tessera | | | | at Fri 16 May 7:14am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 46 | | | | | |
I noticed the same thing last night, and a friend of mine said she thought she had seen it as well. Good on the Wachowskis, I say. I don't think there will be any sort of uproar over this, just because A) most people won't notice, and B) it's easy for the Wachowski brothers to deny that that's what they meant, if they want. And if you think anything could cut into the profits of this movie, you're crazy.
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| | | | | 51. Re: Who's portrayed as a villain again? | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Fri 16 May 8:04am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 46 | | | | | |
What backlash? If Bush goes against such a popular movie because it teases him, he will look like even more of an idiot. The sensible strategy is to wait for the next movie (after the trilogy) by the brothers and attack it for being too violent. Those sorts of attacks, though, tend to be completely impotent in thier effects on Hollywood (though they have certain positives for politicians).
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 114. What is offensive to Freepers? | | | | by Ajax | | | | at Fri 16 May 3:46pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 61 | | | | | |
This thread has been pulled.
Pulled on 05/13/2003 4:16 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
Please do not post from DU here. Thanks.
God, I love Free Republic. :)
(N.B., this is the link to the "longer thread" mentioned in one of the posts from the thread you linked to. Your link still works.)
"Coca-Cola® and Armageddon® / We like it, like it, yes we do!" -- Clutch.
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| | | | | 119. Re: Who's portrayed as a villain again? | | | | by mUrielw | | | | at Fri 16 May 10:36pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 46 | | | | | |
I didn't see Bush, but I did Rummy tum Tumsfeld. Did anybody else catch that or was this a defect of my sight?
And the only thing I was offended by was the Poweraid commercial and the letdown Revolutions preview.
"This young man will come to understand that aging is about humilation prevention and management." - Rubberstamp
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| | | | | | | | 79. Well as it turns out | | | | by the_nameles_one | | | | at Fri 16 May 10:24am | score of 1.5 helpful | | in reply to comment 58 | | | | | |
'Elric Saga' fantasy series has been recently "optioned" with Moorcock himself as the producer. Look here for CNN's story. So should hawkwind or B0C do the soundtrack?
This is news is from the multiverse web site. Your site for breaking multiverse news. :-B
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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| | | | | 85. Completely OT | | | | by Anywhere | | | | at Fri 16 May 10:52am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 79 | | | | | |
When I was 12 or 13, a friend and I volunteered to help reorganize the local library. You can imagine what fun our male, adolescent selves had when we came across the name "Moorcock" in the stacks.
Gateway computers are pieces of shit, and their customer service is abysmal. Ask me why if you want to hear me vent.
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| | | | | 115. Albino Anti-Heroes | | | | by Ajax | | | | at Fri 16 May 4:00pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 58 | | | | | |
Michael Moorcock's never-ending tide of Elric books
Hey, the tide ended in about 1974 for the most part (although in the latest 14-volume Eternal Champion Omnibus edition by White Wolf, there's actually an Elric story written around 1990: "The Fortress of the Pearl.")
Of course an Elric film still might not appease the albino community's desire for an incontrovertibly heroic albino.
We're talking about Elric Womanslayer? The White Wolf? The Stealer of Souls? The willing servant of Chaos, who kills all his best friends, a couple of cousins (one of whom he was sleeping with), and his wife?
Uh, no. Probably not. :)
"Coca-Cola® and Armageddon® / We like it, like it, yes we do!" -- Clutch.
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| | | | | | 62. Stereotypes may be rooted in our genes | | | | by jeffbiss | | | | at Fri 16 May 8:55am | score of 1.5 scholarly | | | | | | |
People may be offended by stereotypes but there appears to be some sort of biological origin for some of it. Humans, being visually oriented, may depend on physical clues of another person to help determine whether it is advantageous to become friends or enemies, get close or stay away.
Stereotyping may provide a rule-of-thumb for determining fitness when selecting a mate or friends. It may be that we are genetically predisposed to equate physical defect, attributes that are perceived as being far from the norm, as a danger signal to aid in our survival.
For example, studies indicate that the more symmetry a person possesses the more attractive that person is to others, less symmetry means that the person is considered less attractive overall. Therefore, many movies have used asymmetric actors and actresses to play evil characters and symmetrical ones to play good characters.
There also appears to be a universal (genetic) correlation between light and good, dark and evil. This appears throughout movie history by using brunettes to play the evil seductress and blondes to play the innocent. Darker skinned actors and actresses, whether white or black, usually played the evil character while lighter skinned ones played the good character. Light and dark are always relative to the skin color of the people involved.
Perceived physical defects such as scars, injuries, albinism, blemishes, also seem to play a role in how we perceive the person because a defect could be equated with disease such as small pox. Pock marked actors and actresses are typically cast as the evil character whereas smooth skinned ones cast as the good character. Albinism falls into the evil charater because the pigment color, or lack thereof, is out of the norm for all peoples.
What can complicate stereotyping is that perceptions are also social. For example, paler people can be bourgeois while the darker can be proletariat. Therefore, using color to stereotype characters can be complicated by how the wealthy are perceived rather than by genetics. If the wealthy are thought of as callous, the paler person can be cast as the evil character. If good looking people are thought of as out of touch with average or ugly people they can also be stereotyped as the evil character.
Stereotyping may be a diservice to many people but we all do it, whether it is genetic or social, because we seem wired to make assuptions; prejudging according to visual clues is done every time we meet someone. It is just part of life. Movies make use of these stereotypes because people use this symbolism naturally. Whether it is the albino or handsome man cast as the bad guy, there is some stereotyping involved.
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| | | | | | 74. The Lucifer Principle | | | | by wicked_sprite | | | | at Fri 16 May 9:55am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 62 | | | | | |
Interesting post. You may want to check out a book named "The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History" by Howard K. Bloom.
Synpopsis from Amazon: "The "Lucifer Principle" is freelance journalist Bloom's theory that evil-which manifests in violence, destructiveness and war-is woven into our biological fabric. A corollary is that evil is a by-product of nature's strategy to move the world to greater heights of organization and power as national or religious groups follow ideologies that trigger lofty ideals as well as base cruelty."
The biological basis for stereotyping is covered in this book as well. FYI.
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| | | | | 83. Re: Stereotypes may be rooted in our genes | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Fri 16 May 10:40am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 62 | | | | | |
I'm aware of evidence of a genetic predisposition to prefer the blemish-free, symmetrical, unscarred, etc. I'm not aware of one relating to general skin-tone or anything like that. Could you elaborate on this evidence? I have a feeling it is confounded with, at the very least, social psychological tendencies if not confounded with the very fact that our society is racist.
However, even if that is incontrovertibly the truth, that only means that we, as a society, must make a stronger effort to not be racist.
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 94. An elaboration | | | | by jeffbiss | | | | at Fri 16 May 11:44am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 83 | | | | | |
I don't have any concrete evidence for this only observational and anecdotal. I suppose this is merely my hypothesis.
As I see it, it appears that throughout history people have leaned toward light equals good and dark equals evil. In support I present as some evidence:
- Blondes have usually been equated with good and innocent and have been more highly prized than brunettes.
- Religiously, white is equated with purity and black with impure. For example: the Great White Buffalo, Sons of Light vs. the Sons of Darkness,use of white ceremonial clothing, etc.
- Light skin equated with good, darker with not so good. Many rulers/priests were kept out of the sun to ensure a lighter skin tone and limit skin blemishes caused by exposure to sun light.
These appear to be universal, regardless of the actual skin color of the people involved.
I am not an anthropologist and may have overstated something. I should have done some sort of study over the net to provide a bibliography but didn't.
I don't necessarily see this as racist, because the light versus dark is relative to the people involved. The problem is that when it is extended to relate an overall lighter skinned people to an overall darker skinned people where the obvious difference provides an irrational basis for the lighter skinned group to consider themselves superior.
The basis for skin/hair color/tone stereotyping may be similar to the view of left handedness as undesirable or wrong. Right handed people are in the majority and so the right hand is used for most activities, leaving the left hand to be used for dirty business. Left side (sinister)is used for evil associating left handed people with untrustworthyness thus our use of sinister for evil; the majority wouldn't use the left hand for eating when it is used for wiping one's rear end.
This could imply that light vs dark dichotomy could be merely cultural based on something like sun equals good (all things visible) and night equals bad (all things hidden) or lighter equals good (clean) and darker equals bad (unclean). This, like the left hand is sinister, is a universal experience for all people that may have some developed genetic component.
What do you think?
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| | | | | 102. Re: An elaboration | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Fri 16 May 12:39pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 94 | | | | | |
Most of your examples come from within certain particular societies. You didn't include things like the Chinese using white to symbolize death. I recently saw a documentary on the story of David and Batsheba which said that that kind of racism probably didn't exist at the time. (Though sexism surely did and explains David's reservations about Bathsheba.) Or you could look at the depiction of albinos in film. So I really doubt the consistency and universality of the pattern, although I'm sure every society has some similar beliefs along with some dissimilar beliefs.
I think it's rather that people who grow up in racist societies adopt those racist attitudes, even if only subtly and subconsciously. Then there are certain psychological tendencies (we operate completely on heuristics) which amplify and preserve these attitudes.
Of course, the problem still becomes how to fight racism, no matter how it arises.
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 110. I see your point, but | | | | by jeffbiss | | | | at Fri 16 May 1:45pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 102 | | | | | |
I could see that the Chinese white equals death from a concept of white not being any color and therefore empty. I don't think that it has the same level as black though. Black is the color of evil and represents the lowest energy level just prior to an increase as I remember it.
Also, I think that pigments can have a different meaning because of cost. Dark vibrant colors (including deep black) are usually more expensive to produce and therefore more desirable to the wealthy, whereas colorless (natural colors) are cheaper and for the masses (poor).
This could have the implication that cheap/lighter colors are viewed as preferable because they are for the poor. The poor are generally elevated to a higher moral level than the wealthy; it is better to be a martyr than the one who martyrs. This dichotomy can be seen in the New Testament with the "meek shall inherent the earth" philosophy underlying the Zealot movement that most accept as Pauline Christianity.
This color thing does complicate the debate of what might be genetic in origin versus social. I still think that there might be a genetic component generated from dirt/disease equals bad, not dirty/no disease equals good. Like I said, it is only my hypothesis.
Racism didn't always exist as we experience it, as can be seen in the ancient world. Racism as we experience it, I have heard, is a direct result of an ignorant and Christianized Europe. After all, science indicates that we all came from Africa with about 20,000 years required to create a "race" (or breed if you will). The genetic differences mean nothing, we just insist that that they do.
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| | | | | 117. Re: I see your point, but | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Fri 16 May 5:14pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 110 | | | | | |
As I understand your post, there are lots of reasons that lots of colors symbolize different, frequently opposed concepts. To me, that suggests the lack of a pattern, rather than a pattern that can only be explained by genetics.
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | | 88. Correct me if I'm wrong- | | | | by Sir Real | | | | at Fri 16 May 11:07am | score of 1 | | | | | | |
But how can the WB spokesperson say the villains are dead rather than albino if THEY HAVE RED EYES. Your eyes don't turn red after you die- whereas they are red/pink if you're an albino (or light blue, or so I understand).
Not sure how I feel about albino hero/villian representation, but I do object to having my intelligence insulted.
The serpent, meanwhile, Sleeps his meal off in Paradise -Smiling to hear God's querulous calling.- Ted Hughes
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| | | | | | 90. Re: Correct me if I'm wrong- | | | | by Anywhere | | | | at Fri 16 May 11:17am | score of 1.5 funny | | in reply to comment 88 | | | | | |
I haven't seen the movie, yet, so I could be missing something but:
You also don't fly around and perform martial arts after you die (in my, admittedly, narrow experience). I think it's a little bit of artistic license.
Gateway computers are pieces of shit, and their customer service is abysmal. Ask me why if you want to hear me vent.
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| | | | | 95. Re: Correct me if I'm wrong- | | | | by Sir Real | | | | at Fri 16 May 12:03pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 90 | | | | | |
whereas Albinos can perform martial arts and the dead don't (generally speaking). So, which is the more likely interpretation for the audience?
re: artistic license- artistry involves invoking the desired reaction in the audience. If they were attempting to convey the twins as dead rather than albinos- they failed.
(disclaimer- haven't seen the movie- if some character says "Oh- they're DEAD twins", please disregard...)
The serpent, meanwhile, Sleeps his meal off in Paradise -Smiling to hear God's querulous calling.- Ted Hughes
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| | | | | 137. An actual albino SPEAKS!! | | | | by landonair | | | | at Sat 17 May 8:29pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 88 | | | | | |
...(or light blue, or so I understand).
Where did you hear that? Man, I've been telling myself and everyone else that I wasn't an albino because my eyes were blue, not pink. I still doubt that I'm an actual albino. If I'm out in the sun a lot I do get something that might suggest a tan, under the right light. My hair is on the fence between light blonde and downright white. It's a color that wouldn't look out of place on a girl, but I've never seen a guy with hair even close to mine that wasn't albino. ("So, what's your real hair color?", "WOW, where did you get your hair dyed? They did such a good job!")
The only movie with an albino that irked me a bit was Me, Myself and Irene. He was only in it to be the brunt of a bunch of "hey, Milky!" jokes, to be a freak, sexually undesirable weirdo. There was also an albino in Gummo, and again, the only reason she was in it was to play the role of freak, in a cast of dozens of other socioeconomic freaks that don't have the good fortune to be a phony New York rich kid that is intelligent enough to drop the right names and provoke the bourgeoisie into thinking he's a controversial, cutting-edge auteur like Harmony Korine. You could just tell that when she was talking about her hunk fantasy men ("Patrick Swayze- I would pay money to touch him.") she was just being herself, but then near the end of her scene she was talking about how she liked to crush ping-pong balls with her feet or something like that, I don't remember exactly, she was being told to repeat lines. You can see the embarrassment in her face and the sudden realization in her eyes 'so that's why they're putting me in this movie, they think I'm a freak'.
I can take a joke, so neither really bothered me that much. But it seems that now it's not p.c. to make fun of fat people, albinos and the English are two of the only safe targets left.
It really, really sucks to be an albino, or near-albino. It's not fun.
And yes, I was dropped on my head as a baby. (In a Safeway in Regina, Saskatchewan) God, life has played me a cruel hand of Tristram Shandy proportions. I want another one.
"It's so easy to say things that are so idealistic without reasoning and thinking them out in the big picture"
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| | | | | | 121. Stop being so damn serious. | | | | by FONADI | | | | at Fri 16 May 11:56pm | score of 1.5 succinct | | | | | | |
you know, the matrix reloaded was the first time i have been in a cinema, since, The Gangs of New York, and well, before that, Naqoyqatsi, and before that, American Psycho. so out of the last 4 movies, i saw in a cinema, turns out that the white person was the bad guy.
OK, maybe i'm a little harsh. but not to be a little OT, i guess i am mostly offended that hollywood is mostly turning out pure crap. or nothing worth 8 dollars.
And hasn't every movie ever released been in someway, racist?
Stop taking yourself so seriously. damn. we are all going to die someday. have some fun.
if you want to see something non offensive, I reccomend Doppelherz. really good.
oh well.
Have fun people, and don't hurt anyone.
FONADI
"The only time i'm drink and drug free, is when i get my drugs and drink for free" J. Spaceman
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| | | | | | 135. So... | | | | by Radioactive Man | | | | at Sat 17 May 6:59pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
...what's the point of this story? We're bringing up another case of discrimination? I walk outside every other weekend with my father who isn't the same color as I am and we get short, odd glimpses. Does this mean I can post a story about it?
Never mind. I didn't read that part.
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| | | | | | 138. simpler than MMN | | | | by juepucta | | | | at Sat 17 May 11:45pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
It doesn't even go as far as the MMN...
White suburban kids want to be blacker than the actual blacks.
Or haven't you noticed all the wiggers at walmart, wearing baggy pants and speaking crap, whitened ebonics? Fitty cents (instead of fifty cents) and shit?
Dumbass suburban whiteys.
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