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| | | | | Castro Waves Arms, Says, 'Hey, Still A Ruthless Dictator Down Here!' | | | | | found on The San Francisco Chronicle
written by MAYORBOB, edited by John (Plastic) [ read unedited ]
posted Fri 11 Apr 2:18pm | | | | |
 | "The trials were short and the sentences are long. As if taking advantage of the world's attention taking place all the way over in Iraq, another brutal tyrant has managed to ensure just a little less criticism of his regime's authoritarian ways and failings. 75 Cuban dissidents found themselves on the receiving ends of prison sentences of as much as 28 years. The last of the group received their sentences following trials which typically lasted less than a day. Most of those convicted were found guilty of receiving funds and assistance from the U.S. and working to end the regime of Fidel Castro," MAYORBOB writes. "Things had been heating up for opposition groups in Cuba following the arrival of U.S. Interests Section Chief James Cason in Havana. Cason quickly became one of Castro's least favorite Americans because Cason made it a point to touch bases with opposition groups and criticize the government. According to Andrew Breitbart of the Wall Street Journal, the official frostiness of the Bush administration was largely at odds with the balmy reception that Castro received from people like TV diva Barbara Walters and Hollywood heavyweights like Jack Nicholson and Steven Spielberg, who characterized his brief audience with Castro as, 'the 8 most important hours of my life'. There was even a moment in time when the Castro regime received lukewarm praise from a former U.S. President.
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| | | "Both the speed of the trial and the harshness of the sentences handed out earned the Cuban government a denunciation from Secretary of State Colin Powell, calling the trials 'the most significant act of political repression in decades.' Elizardo Sanchez, of the Cuban Commission on Human Rights and National Reconciliation observed that, 'There has never been anything similar to this in the history of Cuba.' Cuban Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque said that the trials were not conducted using the war in Iraq as a cover because the arrests had occurred well before the fighting. He also alleged that the U.S. government continues to be obsessed with creating a Fifth Column in Cuba and that the justice that was meted out is proof that the Cuban government will resist these attempts. The U.S. government plans on referring the matter to the Human Rights Commission in Geneva, Switzerland. But, as far as Castro is concerned, they can just take a number and stand in line with the other Human Rights organizations that have complained in the past."
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[ more plastic... ] |
| | | | | | | | | 9. Re: Attention: | | | | by Acefantastik |  | | | at Fri 11 Apr 4:01pm | score of 4 brilliant | | in reply to comment 7 | | | | | |
one is free when no others are oppressed.
I give you: Tibetians, Cubans, Kurds, Palestinians, South Africans, North Koreans, Bosnians, Croats, Albanians in Kosovo, Russians, Chinese, East Timorese, Native Americans, and a thousand other oppressed minorities that were the cause de jour for various interest groups, conservative and liberal. All had a legitimate claim to equal rights and protections, yet regrettably, their western defenders were caught up in their own personal agendas, placing their own economic interests and political agendas above the people they were trying to help. Governments and private organizations are selective about who they 'liberate', and why. Power and money are at the root of all action. Never freedom.
So, fuck them all. Fuck Kim Jong Il. Fuck Mugabe. Fuck Chavez, Fuck Sharon, Fuck Arafat, Fuck Putin, Fuck the Red Chinese, Fuck Castro. Fuck them all. But all the Ivory-tower lefties who put their discomfort at Bush's agenda above their compassion for dignity and freedom can fuck off. And all those neocons who want to fight an economic war disguised as a culture war can fuck off too.
Fuck them all. No one is free when others are oppressed.
iDanza y musica!
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| | | | | 10. Re: Ahem: | | | | by sapienza |  | | | at Fri 11 Apr 4:03pm | score of 3 compelling | | in reply to comment 2 | | | | | |
Hell, considering the Patriot Act, Patriot Act II: Revenge of Patriot Act, the Oregon senator who wants to be able to jail anti-war protestors as terrorists, all the people who consider "non support of the president" as treason, the crimes going on at camp X-Ray and more ...
why should that be ignored in the United States?
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| | | | | 59. Re: Ahem: | | | | by beelers |  | | | at Sat 12 Apr 6:04pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 2 | | | | | |
I believe the reason the Cuban situation will be ignored is there is nothing financial or political to gain from castrating Cuba. Iraq? It has oil.
Keep in mind this is a VAST oversimplification, but it pretty well sums up the situation.
Visit www.beelers.org. Check out the Occasional Rant.
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| | | | | | | 4. some free advice. | | | | by postbear | | | | at Fri 11 Apr 2:44pm | score of 1 astute | | | | | | |
reign in your ambassadors, your official government spokespeople and your president. the insults of james cason, paul cellucci and others are unwarranted and unwelcome.
commentary on the sovereignty of other nations is quite often unappreciated. even when the criticism is somewhat accurate, the recent american elections and heated debate over the 'patriot' act have indicated that your internal troubles should be more of a priority. how welcome would foreign nationals in your country be if they made derogatory statements about the u.s. in general, not to mention the functional ability of your government?
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| | | | | | 5. Re: some free advice. | | | | by Anonymous Idiot |  | | | at Fri 11 Apr 2:52pm | score of 0.5 astute | | in reply to comment 4 | | | | | |
how welcome would foreign nationals in your country be if they made derogatory statements about the u.s. in general, not to mention the functional ability of your government?
Are you kidding me? Every frigging day foreigners criticize our Government and our leaders, or don't you read? The difference is, we don't take it on German nationals just because their country is run by idiots.
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| | | | | 18. Re: some free advice. | | | | by postbear | | | | at Fri 11 Apr 8:59pm | score of 3.5 informative | | in reply to comment 14 | | | | | |
that's a great example. thanks for mentioning it. an aide to the prime minister made the comment, not a senior official, nor a diplomat, and she was referring to your president's zeal in attacking iraq. given all the nonsense that has gone on in iraq since mid-november when ms. ducros committed her gaffe, her remark seems more than accurate. also, ms. ducros erred while speaking in an aside to reporters in prague, not while in your country in an official capacity.
in any event, she resigned a week later, something mr. cellucci and mr. cason should consider as the appropriate course of action.
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| | | | | 23. Re: some free advice. | | | | by postbear | | | | at Fri 11 Apr 9:53pm | score of 1.5 succinct | | in reply to comment 19 | | | | | |
lighten up?
if you didn't want to bring the words of ms. ducros into the discussion, you needn't have mentioned them. i merely replied to your post, and with no acidity.
or should i 'lighten up' because i think mr. cellucci's and mr. cason's statements were counter-productive and inappropriate?
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| | | | | 43. Ganbatte , p.b.-san ! | | | | by TheColdKing | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 11:37am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 23 | | | | | |
The rest of the world ( who isn't either an American or a wannabe-American ) truly knows just where you're coming from and fully supports your complete position on the matter . I said it before , and I'll say it again , the problem with America is that it wants to have it's cake , as well as everybody else's too , it desires absolute power without any responsibility whatsoever, in other words , it is the biggest spoiled brat on the face of the planet , possibly exceeded only by North Korea, which is not surprising considering that both nations are headed by little boys trying too hard to be big men in a desperate bid to somehow win the approval at their daddies who didn't love them for being such pathetic disappointments.
TRUST NO ONE;
USE EVERYONE
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| | | | | 16. Re: some free advice. | | | | by M. Mosher | | | | at Fri 11 Apr 7:42pm | score of 1.5 clever | | in reply to comment 4 | | | | | |
commentary on the sovereignty of other nations is quite often unappreciated. even when the criticism is somewhat accurate, the recent american elections and heated debate over the 'patriot' act have indicated that your internal troubles should be more of a priority.
It always surprises me, though I don't know why, every time someone compares Castro's brutalities to some American political argument like the Patriot Act or a close election. Ah, what Cubans would do for the chance to have any election at all! What they would do if their only worry was a Cuban equivalent of a Patriot Act!
That you would say something like the insults of james cason, paul cellucci and others are unwarranted and unwelcome tells me you are either indifferent to the oppression of Cubans or you are just as enamored of Cuba's dictator as so much of Hollywood seems to be. Please answer this. What is it about Fidel Castro that causes otherwise intelligent people to overlook his murderous ways? Is it that he snubs his nose at the US? If so, you are asking 11 million impoverished Cubans to pay for that satisfaction.
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| | | | | 20. Re: some free advice. | | | | by postbear | | | | at Fri 11 Apr 9:19pm | score of 1.5 interesting | | in reply to comment 16 | | | | | |
i'm not indifferent in any way to the struggles of cubans. in fact, i've been there several times to see for myself, of my own initiative and as a guest of the nation. have you been to cuba to investigate your allegations? i'd wager that you haven't.
i excuse no misdeeds of fidel castro, but i stand by my statement that spouting negative commentary from the u.s. on cuban soil is the wrong approach. just as mr. cellucci erred when speaking to the press on more than one occasion about canada's international policies, so has mr. cason erred. such inappropriate behaviour is quite accurately interpreted as political grandstanding and is met with anger and resentment, quite often by people who might otherwise agree with you (if only in part) if only you hadn't been so very rude. the disrespect shown by these diplomats is eroding whatever relationship existed between our respective nations.
in no way am i enamoured of mr. castro, though i have met him and he really can be quite charming. in fact, he is light-years ahead of the leaders of both our nations when it comes to wit, warmth and civility, at least in public and among people he does not view as criminals.
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| | | | | 32. Re: some free advice. | | | | by M. Mosher | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 8:19am | score of 1.5 interesting | | in reply to comment 20 | | | | | |
First of all, let me say that you suffer from CLDD (capital letter deficiency disorder). Perhaps your shift key is broken? Actually, I'm not complaining. You break your comments into paragraphs, which makes them easy to read. Some people don't take a breath when they write, resulting in an entire page of wall-to-wall words. I have a hard time getting through those.
in fact, i've been there several times to see for myself, of my own initiative and as a guest of the nation. have you been to cuba to investigate your allegations? i'd wager that you haven't.
I've spent a considerable amount of time living in Colombia (my wife is Colombian) and visiting and working in Ecuador, Venezuela, Peru, Chile, Mexico, and Puerto Rico. I have Cuban friends of two varieties — those who came to America shortly after Castro seized power and those who swam to safety recently to escape economic and political bondage.
From this last group, I've had the benefit of hearing, in Spanish, vivid descriptions of life in Cuba, and I'd wager that those descriptions are more valid and more representative of life there than what anyone could get as a 'guest' of Castro's communist government.
That people come away from meetings with Castro feeling euphoric over his charisma and charm make his brutality that much more evil. It means that murderous dictators get a free pass from well-meaning western liberals as long as they are charming during their little tete-a-tete.
So, while I don't fault anyone for reporting his public wit and civility, I would expect them to also talk to his political and economic victims and to research conditions outside the itinerary of any Cuban sponsored visits to Havana before blandly condemning America for its policy of helping opposition groups.
I realize that I'm ranting more against the Hollywood variety Castro fan than against you, postbear. Your big gripe is that American diplomats shouldn't publicly criticize Cuba on Cuban soil. There certainly is an etiquette in diplomatic circles that frowns on this and other similar transgressions, but I argue that this is the very thing that allows diplomacy to perpetuate the status quo. When diplomacy-by-the-book doesn't result in meaningful change you can either give a big French shrug and walk away or you can change the rule book and try different things.
Castro has his heels dug in and he's beaten and starved the resistance out of most of his 11 million inmates, so if an American diplomat holds meetings with opposition groups and if he says things critical to Cuba in a place where Cubans might actually hear them, I can understand why Castro would be angry. But I cannot understand why you would be angry.
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| | | | | 39. Just like Uncle Joe | | | | by sulli | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 10:24am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 20 | | | | | |
in fact, he is light-years ahead of the leaders of both our nations when it comes to wit, warmth and civility, at least in public and among people he does not view as criminals.
They said Joe Stalin was the nicest guy. Unless of course, he decided to send you and your family to the gulag or worse for, well, whatever random reason he felt like.
Tout abus sera puni
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| | | | | 46. Re: some free advice. | | | | by postbear | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 12:03pm | score of 1.5 astute | | in reply to comment 32 | | | | | |
i'll go through your points in order --
thanks for noticing my typing. i'm not sure what the relevance is to this discussion, but stylistically i prefer lower case. it's an aestetic choice, based on the appearance of text, both here and on paper. i design fonts once in a while, and many of them have no upper case register.
your travel and residency in south, central and north america is different from mine. in any event, my stays in cuba have been quite informative. one of my friends here in toronto is a cuban man who returns there every year and has accompanied me twice when i flew to havana. i stayed with his family in their home, met their friends and neighbours, and was summoned to a meeting with mr. castro through one of their endeavours. i'm sure i was only a guest because mr. castro wanted to advance his reputation and the glory of cuba, and i happened to be a foreign national available for dinner and conversation. in any event, what i saw there nearly completely contradicts much of what i read from ex-patriot cubans living in the u.s. that is not, however, to deny any crimes committed by mr. castro's government.
since that meeting, i've been back to cuba a few times, and have stayed with people i met most often. there has been much discussion about cuban poverty, canadian troubles and successes, baseball and football and of american embargoes — in short, i've stayed with cuban people in their homes and listened to their words and opinions, so i'd wager that your experiences, while valid, are no replacement for actually travelling in cuba. not having been to colombia, i would appreciate your perspective on cuba from the point of view of an american staying and travelling in other lands, but i will trust more my own experiences in cuba and the friendships i made there.
as for mr. castro's charm — the only reason i mentioned it was in reply to your question about him in your first post. i was not enamoured of him, as i pointed out, nor does it matter what anyone in hollywood thinks of him, of you, or of me.
unlike you, i don't feel that diplomacy helps perpetuate the status quo in cuba or anywhere else. what mr. cason has done has made his posting irrelevant. this diplomat who now cannot do his job because he has alienated every official representing a foreign country wastes more than money and time — he also harms the relationship that your nation may have been building with cuba. while you, and perhaps your government may feel that meaningful change will only result from fomenting revolution in cuba, the objective of the diplomat is not to screech this from the cuban rooftops. if you really want to effect change there, you'd be much better off selling the idea of 'a better life', ending the nonsense embargoes, allowing your citizens to visit, and install a diplomat with some sense of civility.
you call cubans inmates, and that really is uncalled for. do yourself a favour and go there, despite what your government says in that regard. or, are you afraid of the repercussions that might follow in your country if you were to have a cuban stamp on your passport?
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| | | | | 51. Re: some free advice. | | | | by tjb | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 12:50pm | score of 1.5 astute | | in reply to comment 46 | | | | | |
"you call cubans inmates, and that really is uncalled for."
So, what you're saying is that any Cuban citizen is free to emigrate from his country to a place of his choosing at a time of his choosing without governmental interference on the part of Castro's regime?
If not, I'd say "inmates" is a pretty good way to describe them.
Tim
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| | | | | 55. Re: some free advice. | | | | by bufferoverflowed | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 3:18pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 46 | | | | | |
I think you meant expatriate, not ex-patriot, silly english language.
Anyway, well said.
never(17), world(16), wrong(15), weapons(14), country(13), every(13), reasons(11), saddam(11), still(10), american(10)
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| | | | | 17. Re: some free advice. | | | | by Tycho | | | | at Fri 11 Apr 8:20pm | score of 1.5 compelling | | in reply to comment 4 | | | | | |
commentary on the sovereignty of other nations is quite often unappreciated. even when the criticism is somewhat accurate, the recent american elections and heated debate over the 'patriot' act have indicated that your internal troubles should be more of a priority. how welcome would foreign nationals in your country be if they made derogatory statements about the u.s. in general, not to mention the functional ability of your government? What, you mean like the ambassadors from France, Russia, and Germany? Or do you mean virtually the entire foreign press? Perhaps you mean the Arab talking heads invited on talk shows to explain the other side? Do you mean foreign nationals like that? They may well be right. They may not. They are, however, more than welcome to their opinion. If any of them caught a 28-year jail sentence or expulsion from the country for questioning the principles and policies of their host nation, I'd be pushing civil libertarians out of the same way to stand by their rights to question our sovreignity.
As a side note, what is this sudden obsession with the sovreign rights of despots? Any sane political theory accords those who hold power by force no right to rule, whether they are foreign or domestic. Dictators are occupiers of their own countries. It matters little (though it perhaps might matter a little more if I had any real sense of nationalism) whether the bullet that encourages them to retire is foreign or domestic: at least a foreign army has the arms to depose a despotic government without an immense loss of life. Yes, I know: this is an Ugly American belief. This is also a belief I genuinely hold. Why are you right and I wrong?
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| | | | | 22. Re: some free advice. | | | | by postbear |  | | | at Fri 11 Apr 9:44pm | score of 2 compelling | | in reply to comment 17 | | | | | |
i'm concerned here with the actions and statements of government officials on foreign soil, not the remarks of reporters or the 'arab talking heads' which have you upset.
what statements have these french, russian and german ambassadors to the u.s. made publicly inside the borders of the u.s.? if they have been unnecessarily critical and harsh, they have probably been made to feel particularly unwelcome. i'm quite positive any french nationals in your country could support me in this.
as a result of this ill will, u.s. relations with russia, france and germany will suffer. you may not perceive this as any sort of unfortunate event, but bad blood adversely affects the business of diplomacy, which is the domain of diplomats — the very people who, in these cases, ought to be showing some restraint.
i have no 'sudden obsession' with sovereignty. it's been a notion i've recognized as critical for most of my life, and i've lived in some places that did not embrace democracy with any conviction. i do respect the ability of people to make their way as individuals, and tribes and nations to strive, make errors, succeed and fail without interference. this absurd invasion of iraq, excused as a preventive war, has the potential to provide the precedent for the u.s. (and other countries) to not only decry the perceived wrongdoings of foreign nations, but also to invade and dismantle the governments of which it does not approve. it is quite one thing to look at the track records of nicaragua and chile and see covert operations, and then to look at iraq and see the same 'regime change' implemented, only openly, with the media-induced approval of some previously sensible people.
that is why i say quit insulting cuba — it could lead to military action thinly disguised as a humanitarian effort.
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| | | | | 26. Re: some free advice. | | | | by Tycho | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 12:04am | score of 1.5 astute | | in reply to comment 22 | | | | | |
i have no 'sudden obsession' with sovereignty. it's been a notion i've recognized as critical for most of my life, and i've lived in some places that did not embrace democracy with any conviction. i do respect the ability of people to make their way as individuals, and tribes and nations to strive, make errors, succeed and fail without interference. this absurd invasion of iraq, excused as a preventive war, has the potential to provide the precedent for the u.s. (and other countries) to not only decry the perceived wrongdoings of foreign nations, but also to invade and dismantle the governments of which it does not approve. it is quite one thing to look at the track records of nicaragua and chile and see covert operations, and then to look at iraq and see the same 'regime change' implemented, only openly, with the media-induced approval of some previously sensible people. It is one thing to look at the track record of leaders that have been deposed by American covert interference. These have universally been failures. Above-the-board American intervention has had a more mixed record. Intervention in Germany and Japan unequivocally improved the governments of both nations, and, with the former, we were quite obviously violating its national sovreignity, interfering with its internal affairs, and dismantling a government of which Americans do not approve.
Furthermore, it's puzzling to me that you choose American covert meddling as the model for the intervention in Iraq rather than our above-board 'regime change' operations, as they obviously have important categorical differences. This largely relates to not having an infinite choice of factions when offering covert support. The CIA has variously supported communists over fascists, fascists over communists, theocrats over monarchists, monarchists over communists, and monarchists over theocrats, often ignoring democratic alternatives when there is no credible native support. In Angola, during the Cold War, we even went so far as to bankroll Leninists against Maoists.
Given the opportunity to guide the development of a native government from scratch, we have had a much better track record. Germany and Japan (and to some extent, the Phillipines, although the situation there was originally much different) have stable, undeniably native governments that — except for military bases on their land — have cut the strings to their former American conquerors. This is the model I prefer for Iraq.
As for Saddam Hussein: he seized control of a country of arbitrary borders through military force. He is, and has always been, a native occupying force, maintaining control through Ba'ath party recruityment and oppressive secret police. He has managed to suppress all rebellions except for the purely spontaneous. When encouraged Iraq's people to 'rise up' following the UN's defense of Kuwait's sovreignity and oil, they did. We will likely never know how many died. Should we have intervened then? Not to do so was morally reprehensible. To have done so would have been imperialistic.
Bush's intervention was not done for the right reasons. It was not even done for good reasons. It was done to intimidate Saudi Arabia, Syria, and a host of imaginary neoconservative enemies. It was done to prove the UN useless, and to humiliate the EU, and to shake Americans free of the thought that we need allies. It has made even me, an American with an admittedly rosy view of American military power, uncomfortable with our position in the world.
But when it comes to numbers — the only quantification we can have of the suffering we caused and relieved by going to war — the Iraqi people come out ahead. The war cost fewer lives than the (conservative) 10,000 that another year of embargo would have killed. The war cost far fewer lives that abandoning the northern and southern no fly zones would have — the cost to the Kurds would have been incalculable. Even if we do abandon the Kurds, a leader that had devoted a significant amount of time and power to their organized oppression will not exist for a long time.
In short, the worst of all possible leaders has been overthrown in favor of uncertainty. Americans are in full view of the world. Hopefully, America will try to prove — as it has always tried to prove when under the watchful eye of world media — that it is morally superior to the alternatives.
We sold arms to Saddam Hussein. We supported Iraq's chemical campaign against Iran and the Kurds. We urged the Iraqis to 'rise up' and then did nothing when they did. We starved thousands of Iraqis with an embargo that only made Saddam Hussein richer. We haven't come through for them yet, but this is one step closer to genuinely wiping out despotism in the region. Here's to hoping that, despite our failings, we can pull it off.
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| | | | | 27. Re: some free advice. | | | | by postbear | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 1:05am | score of 2.5 interesting | | in reply to comment 26 | | | | | |
i'll try to be brief. it's past my bedtime. that said....
your interference in japan and germany is not quite relevant, i think. germany was in the midst of a world war by the time the u.s. engaged, and had crossed many an international border as the invading force. there would be no covert operation possible here.
i compare the invasion of iraq to covert operations not because of any concern regarding the likely replacement government, though i note your point. i did reference nicaragua because of the nature of the conflict: preventive war, which in history your nation has frowned upon (officially), has been used by your government to effect regime change when it wishes to avoid being connected to the conflict. thus, the model for iraq is, in this view, valid.
as for a replacement government in iraq, i have very little comment, save that a west-friendly puppet regime is hardly better than the deposed saddam hussein's happy funtime jamboree. so far the only name put forth has been that of the eminently untrustworthy ahmed chalabi, a man who hasn't been in iraq since 1958, has fraud and embezzlement convictions, and has been on the payroll of the cia.
saddam hussein's reign was, as you say, an issue of force and control within iraq. this is precisely my point regarding foreign policy issues — as much as we might disagree with the laws and ideology of other countries, we have the right to express our disagreement in a formal manner. when we engage in covert wars and preventive wars, we have abandoned not only the peace process, but our own right not to be invaded or subverted.
moral superiority, if indeed there has ever been any, was lost by your nation when it began to attack iraq despite not having any reason or justification for the action. in effect, the u.s. started a preventive war, something it had never done before, and of which it had been officially noted as a stern opponent, even when there were mitigating circumstances such as genocide. remember the trouble between india and east pakistan, when pakistan was decimating hindus and building death camps for that purpose? india wanted to cross the border and engage, but the u.s. (among other nations) refused to condone the action, despite expressing sympathies for the millions of hindus killed. the principle lost when the u.s. invaded iraq was very expensive.
i know lives were lost and that people will continue to die. it is distressing and wrong on so many levels and in a more extreme manner than i can convey here. however, i feel the principle lost had more value. if your nation is seen as the world superpower, it was hoped that your military would only be met in cases of other nations acting aggressively and stupidly. that assurance is now gone. of all the mistakes that were made by the u.s. (and other nations) in iraq (arms sales, abandonment, embargoes, etc.), i feel the compromise of the acceptance of preventive war was the most costly.
thanks for the discussion. your points are appreciated, and i'll now go to ponder them a little further.
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| | | | | 40. Re: some free advice. | | | | by sulli | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 10:28am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 26 | | | | | |
Germany and Japan (and to some extent, the Phillipines, although the situation there was originally much different) have stable, undeniably native governments that — except for military bases on their land — have cut the strings to their former American conquerors. This is the model I prefer for Iraq.
Of course, the US held Cuba after winning it in the Spanish-American War for three years... oops.
Tout abus sera puni
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| | | | | 42. Re: some free advice. | | | | by Tycho | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 11:02am | score of 1.5 informative | | in reply to comment 40 | | | | | |
Of course, the US held Cuba after winning it in the Spanish-American War for three years... oops. And well after America took Cuba, Cuba was manipulated by American sugar interests and starved out of its rightful property. This probably is a bad analogy for Iraq, which doesn't stand to be controlled by American oil interests ...
... right?
Uh. Well, maybe not.
In any case, even if things go wrong on a Cuban scale, Cuba ultimately got better than it had, though not as good as the invaders were obligated to provide. Instead of white foreign oligarchs, illiteracy, and a vicious, calculating dictator, Cuba now simply has a vicious, calculating dictator. We can hope — and vote! — that Iraq ends up with better.
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| | | | | 44. Are you serious ?! | | | | by TheColdKing | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 11:47am | score of 1 astute | | in reply to comment 26 | | | | | |
(to some extent, the Phillipines, although the situation there was originally much different) have stable, undeniably native governments that — except for military bases on their land — have cut the strings to their former American conquerors.
Not in my country man . Not even in a billion years until we can somehow manage to finally eradicate the parasitical feudal oligarchy ( and their brainwashed mindless serfs) that flourishes by draining the lifeblood out of everyone else here , and whose greatest dream is to become the Next U.S. State...
TRUST NO ONE;
USE EVERYONE
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| | | | | 56. Re: some free advice. | | | | by bufferoverflowed | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 3:24pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 22 | | | | | |
Or, as an American President once said, "....we're not going to send American boys over there to do what Asian boys should be doing for themselves" — Lyndon B. Johnson
never(17), world(16), wrong(15), weapons(14), country(13), every(13), reasons(11), saddam(11), still(10), american(10)
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| | | | | 25. Re: So, to sum up... | | | | by postbear | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 12:02am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 24 | | | | | |
feel free to criticize all you like. all nations have their faults.
diplomats and ambassadors exist in order to improve relations between nations, even (some would say especially) when the nations in question are in strong disagreement. they are not effective when they alienate their hosts by giving press conferences to air their grievances toward policies they (and, implicitly, their nation) find to be in error.
people posting on an internet message board are rarely considered by many to be good ambassadors for their countries. this helps explain why we're rarely able to call those press conferences we so dearly covet, though we're all quite sure we know what's best for everyone.
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| | | | | | 6. Summary executions | | | | by sulli | | | | at Fri 11 Apr 3:11pm | score of 1.5 succinct | | | | | | |
Also, while accused terrorists have been held for over a year in Guantanamo Bay (admittedly without due process), across the fence several accused boat hijackers have been executed by firing squad just eight days after being arrested. What say you to that, Cuba apologists?
Tout abus sera puni
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| | | | | | 15. Re: Summary executions | | | | by cpg | | | | at Fri 11 Apr 7:29pm | score of 0.5 obnoxious | | in reply to comment 6 | | | | | |
Boy, I tell you, Cuba really has judicial process down cold!
Eight days from arrest to execution. I'm amazed that they managed to fit grand jury indictment, retention of counsel, pretrial discovery, pretrial motions, trial, sentencing, substantive appeals, and habeus appeals into that short a span — that process usually takes us Americans at least a decade or so.
These guys make the E.D.Va civil "rocket docket" look like Jarndyce v. Jarndyce.
(What do you mean, "no due process"...)
[BTW, Gitmo detainees don't qualify for US constitutional due process, as they are neither citizens nor legal residents of the US]
Sic hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaliter educatus et nimis propinquus ades.
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| | | | | 30. Re: Summary executions | | | | by M. Mosher | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 7:32am | score of 1.5 informative | | in reply to comment 28 | | | | | |
While we're at it, let's compare the reasons for using the death penalty, shall we?
Texas: brutal, heinous, premeditated murder
Cuba: taking a ferry boat for a joy ride
Oh, and that 4 per year you're talking about in Cuba? That's just the publicized executions. If you count the nameless, faceless political executions that Fidel carries out every year without the benefit of even the kangaroo court variety of trial that the ferryboat hijackers got, you'd get an order of magnitude higher than 4 per year.
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| | | | | 58. Re: Summary executions | | | | by bufferoverflowed | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 3:47pm | score of 1.5 compelling | | in reply to comment 30 | | | | | |
I cry foul. Apart from the fact that only the poor and undesirable are executed in Texas, a lot of innocent people are executed as well. Most of this was covered in the last presidential election in most of your more leftist publications. It's not too hard to find.
Here's something else to look up while you do the previous, do some serious research on the Yogurt Shop killings. Police reports, people hushed up, anything you can get. Here's a starter, Rob Springstein was caught with a different caliber gun than the ones used in the shootings. A group of Mexicans who were caught crossing the border with the right caliber gun, who confessed to the killings and said they'd been paid to do so (and named names) who were quietly released along the border, etc. Make sure you also look into the insurance payoffs, and who was tied into what, and what happened to some of the people writing the articles you find.
never(17), world(16), wrong(15), weapons(14), country(13), every(13), reasons(11), saddam(11), still(10), american(10)
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| | | | | 60. Re: Summary executions | | | | by M. Mosher | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 6:07pm | score of 2 scholarly | | in reply to comment 35 | | | | | |
Let's see. Where to begin? The problem isn't finding a link, it's choosing from among the hundreds.
Let's start with this site that tells about 160,000 Cuban expatriates who have joined a lawsuit in Belgium charging Castro and his government with crimes against humanity. They allege that Castro has raped or killed tens of thousands.
Next, let's go here, a site run by Freedom House. Three paragraphs of particular interest:
There is continued evidence of torture and killings in prison and in psychiatric institutions, where a number of dissidents arrested in recent years are held. Since 1990 the International Committee of the Red Cross has been denied access to prisoners. Local human rights activists say that more than 100 prisons and prison camps hold between 60,000 and 100,000 prisoners of all categories.
Cuban authorities have failed to carry out an adequate investigation into the July 1994 sinking of a tugboat carrying at least 66 people, of whom only 31 survived, as it sought to flee Cuba. Several survivors alleged that the craft sank as it was being pursued and assaulted by three other Cuban vessels acting under official orders, and that the fleeing boat was not allowed to surrender.
Party membership is still required for good jobs, serviceable housing, and real access to social services, including medical care and educational opportunities.
I threw in that last paragraph so that people will know that the vaunted socialized medicine in Cuba comes at a cost.
For a third link, let's go here. Forgive my long cut and paste, but I thought this deserved highlighting.
Cuban marine patrols, determined to stop refugees from reaching the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, have repeatedly tossed grenades and shot at fleeing swimmers and recovered some bodies with gaff hooks, U.S. officials charged Tuesday.
At least three Cubans have been killed in the past month as Cuban patrol boats attacked swimmers within sight of U.S. Navy personnel at Guantanamo.
The killings are the latest sign that Cuba is resorting to violent means to stop a torrent of desperate people from fleeing the impoverished island.
The attacks on swimmers in Guantanamo Bay drew especially sharp criticism because the refugees might easily have been detained without violence, U.S. officials said. "The idea of blowing people up when they are vulnerable underwater is appalling," Gelbard said.
A State Department aide called the use of gaffs, usually used to pull gamefish into boats, to pull bodies from the water "an act of extreme cruelty."
According to the U.S. protest, U.S. military guards surveying the bay have witnessed five separate incidents:
* On June 19 at 2 p.m., U.S. guards, startled by the sounds of detonations, saw Cuban troops aboard patrol boats dropping grenades in the paths of several swimmers headed for the U.S. base.
* On June 20 at 1:30 p.m., Cuban troops repeated the action, then strafed the water with machine-gun fire.
* On June 26 at 11 a.m., three patrol boats surrounded a group of swimmers, lobbing grenades and spraying them with automatic weapons fire. At least three corpses were lifted out of the water with gaffs.
* On June 27 at 11:30 a.m., guards aboard patrol boats lobbed two grenades into the water.
* The same day, just before 3 p.m., a patrol boat opened automatic fire on a group of swimmers, who were later seen being pulled from the water. The swimmers' status was unknown.
The last time a visa lottery was held for Cuba in 1998, more than 500,000 people applied — nearly 5 percent of the nation's population. And despite the danger from Cuba's border control (and sharks) thousands take to the sea every year in hopes of reaching Florida.
kingraoul3, you really shouldn't believe the leftist pap about Cuba, the worker's paradise. It's a brutal place held in bondage by a brutal dictator. Every communist experiment on the planet has lasted only so long as the tyrants in charge held an iron grip on the throats of the population. Why would you think Cuba is any different?
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| | | | | | | 31. This may sound doltish, but.. | | | | by philipmarlowe | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 7:37am | score of 1 obnoxious | | | | | | |
why are people risking their lives and freedom to bring down Castro. The guy is like three years older than death. Time and nature are way ahead of them. When the old man dies, that's the time to shake things up.
this is not a sig
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| | | | | | 36. Re: This may sound doltish, but.. | | | | by Bocephus | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 9:52am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 31 | | | | | |
Castro is in excellent health and could conceivably live another twenty years, which is an awfully long time to wait for freedom.
insert Fight Club quote here to demonstrate Freethinking and Nonconformity
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| | | | | 74. Re: This may sound doltish, but.. | | | | by CaptainLiberal | | | | at Mon 14 Apr 10:07am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 31 | | | | | |
It's my personal opinion that this new wave of abuses is directly tied to Castro's health. I suspect, with no evidence at all, of course, that Castro is not long for this world and his senior leaders are making sure things are nice and quiet during the coming transition of power.
Why wait to jail dissidents until Castro dies, when you can take care of those pesky fellows now, which makes a great warning to those who would rise up after Castro's death.
Every dream turns into something on a T-shirt -- Shriekback
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| | | | | | 37. Most Galling Statement from a Cuban Tourist Award | | | | by billmcn | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 9:56am | score of 1.5 compelling | | | | | | |
I know taking cheap shots at starry-eyed Americans who can see no evil in Cuba is so easy as to be unsporting, but I can't resist passing this quote along. It comes from Tablet, Seattle's second-string alternative weekly. The most recent issue contains an interview with members of the Seattle-based EveryWoman's Delegation to Cuba. The interviewer is gently fishing for some indication that Cuba is less than heaven on earth, but spokesperson B.B. Bowen won't bite. Then comes the money quote.
Tablet: What about free speech issues?
BBB: [There are] problems with free speech. [The limitations are] almost justifiable. If Castro allowed freedom of assembly, he would be gone and the Miami Cubans would have moved back in. If the cause — keeping the socialist system — is just, then [limiting free speech] is okay.
Wow. I mean, criticism of the sanctions or admiration of Cuban literacy rates I can see, but when you blithely advocate the suppression of free speech by a government, I think it's time to turn in your liberal card.
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| | | | | | 50. Re: Most Galling Statement from a Cuban Tourist | | | | by Lothar | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 12:50pm | score of 1.5 astute | | in reply to comment 37 | | | | | |
I think this says more about BBB's disgust for the U.S. right-wing than it does about her beliefs about Cuban civil liberties. She's so (rightfully) paranoid that the U.S. government will do everything they can to crush Cuban socialism that she'll even tolerate a policy that would make her scream bloody murder if it were the Seattle police enforcing it. Why?
1) Cuba is a symbol of a non-white progressive social system bravely defending itself against, conveniently enough, the imperialist ambitions of the white-bread right that the left has opposed in most cases in Cuba and around the world.
2) Pre-Castro Cuba represents one of the worst facets of the anti-communist 1950's as far as leftists are concerned. They're quick to point out the corruption, political repression, economic inequities, patriarchal moral hypocrisy (where did the right-wing elite go to gamble and be promiscuous while slamming these things at home?), and U.S. Cold War sponsorship of these thing while blaming the U.S. embargo if they're spotted today. It's still all about the U.S.
3) The cult of Che Guevara plays a substantial role in the left. Che is the idealized symbol of the romantic, dedicated, peasant-loving revolutionary committed to social justice and progressive internationalism in the face of, again, white starch-shirted, horned-rim glasses-wearing imperialists in the Pentagon. So he shot men in the back who were trying to leave his unit. It's not something they're keen to admit, but who cares? It's the ideal of Che, not the total reality that counts.
4) Most white leftists come from the middle class, which largely hates Castro. Whereas the Castro-hating middle class cites Castro's political repression, the middle class left is convinced it's because Cuba has education and health care policies that liberals love, seem to work well, and yet would cause most middle-class non-leftists to shoot their member of Congress if they voted for them. Supporting Castro is a way of saying "Fuck you!" to the same middle-class they belong to, yet loathe for keeping progressive social policies they support from seeing the light of day.
In short, forget the "real Cuba". The U.S. leftist version of Cuba is so powerful because part of it is true, and they need reassurance in this right-wing political climate that their preferred policies can work somewhere so close to the U.S., and better still, against U.S. economic ideology and repression. Unfortunately, they cling so hard to the vision that they don't want to acknowledge to dark underbelly that undermines even their own basic values. The sad thing is that they wouldn't have to if everyone would just acknowledge the bad fit that ideology has with reality. But alas, ideology is a response to reality.
Remember, The Internet makes you stupid.
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| | | | | 52. Re: Most Galling Statement from a Cuban Tourist | | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 12:54pm | score of 0.5 astute | | in reply to comment 50 | | | | | |
I think this says more about BBB's disgust for the U.S. right-wing than it does about her beliefs about Cuban civil liberties.
She's still an idiot.
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| | | | | 63. Still all about the U.S. | | | | by billmcn | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 7:01pm | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 50 | | | | | |
One stereotype of Americans is that they are incapable of understanding life outside the U.S. And when they do venture beyond the borders of their country, what they see is skewed by biases they bring with them. This charge is usually leveled at so-called mainstream Americans (aka the "white-bread right" of your post), but I think it applies equally well to Americans like BBB. She travels to a complicated place like Cuba and can only see it as a referendum on her feelings about politics back home. This is not as crass as bellowing at the waiters because they don't speak English, but it's just as blinkered.
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| | | | | | 38. Consider this: | | | | by wetkarma | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 10:00am | score of 1 obnoxious | | | | | | |
If these people had committed the same acts in the United States during the 50's the minimal charge against them would have been treason. These days the American press isn't bought off by foreign powers, its simply blackmailed by them into not reporting the truth.
My fellow plasticians also seem to be confusing the arrest and sentencing of dissidents with the recent execution of hijackers of a cuban ferry.
Finally, there is no question as to whether the 75 "dissidents" are innocent to what they have been charged with. Cuba actually exposed their spies within the "dissident" organization in order to lend credence to the charges that were made.
I'm not here to defend Cuba but it takes a willfully obtuse approach to reality to say that because Cuba is not a democracy they have no right to try to protect the system of government from foreign subversion and influence.
Ceterum censeo socialsecuritatem esse delendam.
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| | | | | | 49. Re: Consider this: | | | | by bray | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 12:45pm | score of 1.5 compelling | | in reply to comment 38 | | | | | |
"The authorities in my country have been allowed by the law... to condemn me for the only sovereign act I have carried out since I reached the age of reason: writing without a mandate... It takes a lot of effort to make me feel guilty. It is almost as if they are accusing me of breathing or telling me I have to go to prison for loving my daughters, my mother, my wife, my brother and my friends...
"Nobody is going to make me feel like a criminal, an enemy agent, unpatriotic or any of the other nonsense pedalled by the government to degrade and humiliate people. I am just a man who writes. And who writes in a country where he was born."
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| | | | | | 47. No more apologies.. | | | | by Zaphod Beeblebrox | | | | at Sat 12 Apr 12:30pm | score of 3 compelling | | | | | | |
I've been to Cuba twice (I'm Canadian) and I've enjoyed both visits. On my first trip I was witness to the lack of religious freedom Cubans enjoyed, especially its religious minorities. Still great progress was made in the 1990's to the point where by the time I paid my second visit those restrictions had all but gone. I greatly admired the Cuban people, their excellent health and education system. (Castro tells Oliver Stone in his documentary "Commandante" that one of the great triumphs of the Revolution is that "even the prostitutes have an education".) When Jimmy Carter paid his visit to Cuba last year and was allowed to speak to a national audience and used the occasion to speak in favour of a free press, an independent judiciary and democratic plurality, I hoped that real reform was coming to Cuba.
This weeks events show me I was wrong. Those like me who had spoke in favour of some of the gains from the Revolution have been reminded that the beautiful island is still ruled by a Dictator fanatically adhering to a failed system.
I had hoped Mr. Castro would prove his critics wrong. Pre-revolution Cuba was hardly sovereign, its resources sold to American barons of industry and the mob. It was ruled by a bloated, vain thug, the country was hardly free. After giving the Cubans universal access to healthcare and education Castro apologists have hoped vainly for years that he would at last bring in the other, no less important changes needed to bring Cuba forward. A liberal democracy, an independent judiciary, a free press, etc. A decade past, then two, then three now four and Cuba is still waiting. At first we could say, Castro can't transform the country too quickly, it's a country that has never had these things and changes have to be made gradually so they will be permanent. Or we could say, Castro can't introduce them to the country yet do to a perilous economic situation, it would destabilize the country and endanger the gains made. We have to stop making excuses for that man, he has had over 40 years. In the 90's I thought change was coming. I thought "He is doing it!" When the Pope and then Carter came I thought "He's doing it!"
He is not going to do it. Underneath the charisma, the charm, the beard and the ideology he is just a dictator. Just a dictator. He could have been a heroic figure in history who thumbed his nose to his Goliath neighbour and elevated his country out of middle ages and left it a functioning stable island of democratic values, an example to the third world. Instead he will be remembered as a charismatic dictator whose legacy was dismantled within two years of his ever approaching death. No more apologies for Castro.
Zaphod
Don't Panic
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| | | | | | 65. Hypocrite! | | | | by bbtommy | | | | at Sun 13 Apr 8:35am | score of 1 | | | | | | |
Both the speed of the trial and the harshness of the sentences handed out earned the Cuban government a denunciation from Secretary of State Colin Powell, calling the trials 'the most significant act of political repression in decades.'
Surely Camp X-ray should get a mention?
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| | | | | | 67. A modest proposal | | | | by Spunkmeyer | | | | at Sun 13 Apr 2:33pm | score of 1.5 succinct | | | | | | |
I returned from Cuba right before the recent wave of repression, and had the opportunity to witness the plight of the Cuban people firsthand.
Anyone who wants to improve the conditions in Cuba should write their Congressperson and request that all sanctions against Cuba be lifted right now.
An added dependency on the U.S. dollar is the best remedy to the current situation. Castro is now an old man, and the best way to ensure a transition to a free-market economy after his death is to push the dollar as an integral way of life in Cuba. Trust me, there are many hard-liners that could easily make life in Cuba far worse than it already is.
The Cuban people deserve far, far better than we have provided them in the past 40 years.
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| | | | | | 69. The US embargo of Cuba | | | | by M. Mosher | | | | at Sun 13 Apr 9:42pm | score of 2.5 scholarly | | | | | | |
Many people in this thread advocate ending the US embargo on Cuba. The main reason for this desire is the belief that the embargo keeps Cuba in poverty. A few also believe a dose of American business and a flock of American tourists will end Castro's regime. I haven't seen it here, but if you talk about Cuba long enough you'll find people who also say the embargo prevents Cuba from fighting the drug trade, that the embargo prevents Americans from receiving compensation from Cuba for their nationalized property, and the embargo results in the deaths of thousands of illegal emigrants from Cuba.
Many people who argue against the embargo do so without fully understanding the embargo or its justifications. The most important thing to understand is that the embargo is simply a prohibition against American companies doing business with Cuba. It is not a 'blockade' as it is widely described. Every other nation on the planet is free to do business with Cuba. The Helms-Burton Act carries sanctions against businesspeople from third nations who deal with Cuba but they are not enforced. The embargo simply means American businesses cannot sell to Cuba or buy from Cuba. To blame Cuba's poverty on the embargo implies that wealth can only be created by dealing with America — a notion that the rest of world would scoff at (and indeed, be insulted by) if it were being used in any other context. America's economy represents 21% of gross world product. If trade with the other 79% of the world's economy doesn't help pull Cuba out of poverty there must be another explanation. Cuba is poverty stricken because it is communist, not because America won't buy its cigars or its sugar.
The idea that US foreign investment in Cuba would end Castro's regime is wishful thinking. When a Canadian company sets up a business in Cuba, the Canadian business must negotiate with Castro's regime for labor. The Cuban government pays its laborers a tiny fraction of the amount it charges the Canadian business. The Canadian business is subsidizing communism in Cuba and helping to perpetuate 'Fidelismo'.
The idea that US tourists would flock to Cuba if the embargo were lifted is suspect. But even if it were true, the dollars spent there would only directly benefit Castro's government. Any benefit to Cubans would be indirect and would come in a diluted form and at the discretion of the communist party. While discussing tourism, it's important to point out that Americans can indeed travel to Cuba. Since there are no flights from the US, one must first travel to a third country.
People may ask why the US maintains the embargo if it is not helping to end communism there. The answer is that there were several reasons for the embargo in the beginning. Only one of those reasons was a hope that it would force an end to Castro's communism. A second reason was to minimise the benefit Castro received from stealing billions of dollars worth of American citizens' property in Cuba — mostly businesses, but also land and real estate. Some of those businesses were able to re-locate to other countries and the embargo helped them rebuild. Bacardi Rum, which moved to Puerto Rico, is a perfect example. Other businesses, like casinos and resorts simply withered and died during the early years.
Perhaps the best reason to maintain the embargo is to refuse to legitimize Castro's theft, thereby keeping alive the hopes of millions of Cuban Americans who wish to return someday to try to reclaim some of what was taken. As someone up thread mentioned, Castro is getting old and his death will almost certainly spell the end of communism in Cuba. The embargo will not last much longer anyway, so there is no real need to end it.
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| | | | | | 77. Re: The US embargo of Cuba | | | | by Kurtz | | | | at Mon 14 Apr 1:51pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 69 | | | | | |
America's economy represents 21% of gross world product. If trade with the other 79% of the world's economy doesn't help pull Cuba out of poverty there must be another explanation. Cuba is poverty stricken because it is communist, not because America won't buy its cigars or its sugar.
Yes, and that 21% is located just 90 miles away whereas that 79% is hundreds to thousands of miles away. I don't think it's the only thing keeping Cubans poor, but you're vastly understating the impact an open American market could have on Cuba.
While discussing tourism, it's important to point out that Americans can indeed travel to Cuba.
That site tells you how to visit Cuba illegally; officially, tourist travel is strictly forbidden, something that puts a lot of people off the idea.
--What Would Azathoth Do?
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