The New Piano Lesson
	found on a bunch of places written by Mok, edited by John (Plastic) [ read unedited ] posted Sun 2 Mar 7:58am
		On a recent Saturday afternoon, Grahm Golden performs a standard rite of teenagerdom: the weekly music lesson. But the 13-year-old isn't learning Chopin or Pachebel. "Skinny, high-school kids looking to climb up the popularity ladder are turning more and more to DJ schools to make them like their favorite spinners -- the likes of Paul Oakenfold, Moby and Fatboy Slim. For parents, however, DJing brings up a few problems that soccer and piano do not. The equipment required can be expensive, with a pair of top of the line turntables running at $1,000 or more, and that's not even including the mixer, speakers, headphones, or the plethora of records needed to actually play a set," Mok writes. "Once you have the gear, you need the classes, which run anywhere from $120 to $400 for six- or eight-week sessions. And these lessons aren't all fun and games. The introductory course at the Scratch DJ Academy has an 89-page textbook. Even with all the classes and parental support, the vast majority of these pint-size DJs never really get beyond gigs in their basement, school, and friends' birthday parties. But there are always those that make the big time, like DJ Shrifty, who bought his first set of turntables when he was 11. Is it time to tune that violin one last time, then abandon it for a synthesizer? For most parents, the answer is probably no. But for the amateur DJ, dreams of being the next Paul van Dyk greatly outdo the 'outdated' works of Beethoven."

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1.  lessons?   by hohesC       at Sun 2 Mar 8:27am score of 2 helpful     firstly, a piano certainly costs the equal amount of money. for a beginning dj, less than top-notch equipment is sufficient. what really is expensive is the records. but then again, you have to love the music you are spinning, so you will not only buy the music for solely djing, but also for enjoyment. secondly, what's with those lessons? do djs really take lessons? i learned it by myself, what you need to know is pretty straight-forward and explained in less than an hour (beatmatching, etc.). from then on, what you need to do is practiec, practice, practice. and a lot can be learned from watching other, better djs. the rest comes with time. quite frankly, nobody will turn into a good dj in a sort time, lessons or not. one main aspect of djing is not technique, but song selection. and that just can't be taught. you need your won taste in music and also you ned to learn from watching the crowd, how it reacts to the music. and that can only be learned the hard way, not by reading. what really is expensive is the records. but then again, you have to love the music you are spinning, so you will not only buy the music for solely djing, but also for enjoyment. yes. no.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

68.  Who takes lessons?   by Thunder Bumper       at Mon 3 Mar 8:46am score of 1   in reply to comment 1     secondly, what's with those lessons? do djs really take lessons? Many would argue--particularly old jazz cats--that formal music lessons in general are for suckers. I'm not sure, however, how a young jazzer today could become the next Brad Mehldau or Joshua Redman without lessons. Although Charlie Hunter doesn't have formal training and he is possibly pushing jazz further than either of those cats. Enough jazz though... When it comes to popular music those with training usually just don't "get it" (especially vocalists... Ughhh!... I cringe at the thought). Scales, modes and arpeggios are necessary tools of the trade at a certain level (and in certain genres), but are better learned on ones' own while learning to simply groove your ass off--something that can absolutely not be taught, no matter what anyone says. Classical music is a whole other ball game and there is no doubt that training is a necessity--although it must be coupled with unparallelled dedication to your instrument (to the point of fanaticism if you want to be passable). As for DJ'ing... no comment. ;-)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

2.  Oh, yeah, that's how Moby got big...   by veratrine       at Sun 2 Mar 8:28am score of 1.5 witty     ...indulgent parents with way too much money buying him expensive toys. I'm sure most of the other hugely successful DJs did it the same way. But is it really expensive to let junior take up this hobby, anyway? For comparison, consider the cost of learning to play guitar. Once, 'back in the day' as your kids like to say, it was possible to set a kid up to learn guitar by buying an acoustic guitar and a cheap paperback instruction book and sitting him down on the steps of the back porch to practise. Did you think it was done that way anymore? It is to laugh. First off, you need a top-of-the-line Fender Stratocaster, which can cost well over a thousand dollars, but that's just the beginning. Your kid will also need new wardrobe, a personal stylist, an entourage, aerobics classes to get down his moves, not to mention guitar lessons. Mom, Dad, really when you think about it, isn't the DJ stuff perfectly reasonable? Just hire the kid a chauffeur to drive him to lessons in his very own SUV, and you won't even have to think about it until the credit card bills start rolling in. eggiwegs...I'd like to smash 'em!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

11.  Re: Oh, yeah, that's how Moby got big...   by philipmarlowe       at Sun 2 Mar 12:42pm score of 1   in reply to comment 2     "Did you think it was done that way anymore? It is to laugh. First off, you need a top-of-the-line Fender Stratocaster, which can cost well over a thousand dollars, but that's just the beginning. Your kid will also need new wardrobe, a personal stylist, an entourage, aerobics classes to get down his moves, not to mention guitar lessons." Maybe in Brentwood. Out in lower middle class America where I learned to play guitar, you saved up lawn mowing and birthday money and bought a cheap, second hand guitar and amp. You learned to play from the older kids who already had bands, and once you had callouses on your fingers you started your own band. The kid who's parents had the most money was the drummer, because they could afford a used drumset for him. The kid who hadn't learned anything yet but wanted to be in the band played bass, as it was fairly easy to fake it on bass, especially as you were playing Nirvana covers and generic hardcore punk. You sounded terrible at first, but you got better really quickly, because playing with your friends was much more fun than sitting in a room with a metronome practicing scales. The kids who took lessons were always way behind, even though they knew what key they were playing in and the names of all the chords they could play. this is not a sig   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   21.  Re: Oh, yeah, that's how Moby got big...   by veratrine       at Sun 2 Mar 2:47pm score of 1.5 funny   in reply to comment 11     Sorry, I guess I should have ended with "in case you didn't guess, I'm being sarcastic" like the kids who write in to the op-ed page of the college paper. eggiwegs...I'd like to smash 'em!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   25.  Re: Oh, yeah!   by Anonymous Idiot       at Sun 2 Mar 4:31pm score of 1 clever   in reply to comment 11     You learned to play from the older kids who already had bands, and once you had callouses on your fingers you started your own band. let me guess, it was the summer of '69?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   53.  Re: Oh, yeah, that's how Moby got big...   by snarkism       at Mon 3 Mar 5:59am score of 1   in reply to comment 11     Maybe in Brentwood. Out in lower middle class America where I learned to play guitar, you saved up lawn mowing and birthday money and bought a cheap, second hand guitar and amp. You learned to play from the older kids who already had bands, and once you had callouses on your fingers you started your own band. How is that any different to the DJs who learn on an old set of second hand turntables, and an old home Hi-Fi amplifier? snarkism That's using your ass.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   55.  Re: Oh, yeah, that's how Moby got big...   by bytesex       at Mon 3 Mar 6:13am score of 1   in reply to comment 11     We would jam in joe's garage, his mother was screaming, his dad was mad, we were playing the same old song, in the afternoon and sometimes we would play it all night long. It was all we knew and easy too, so we wouldn't get it wrong; all we did was bend the string.. Casey.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   66.  Re: Oh, yeah, that's how Moby got big...   by philipmarlowe       at Mon 3 Mar 8:31am score of 1   in reply to comment 53     Not at all. That's my point. The really great djs are going to learn by doing. I spent several years playing in bands, and I never met anyone in a great band who learned to play guitar by taking lessons. this is not a sig   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   27.  Re: Oh, yeah, that's how Moby got big...   by prismatic7       at Sun 2 Mar 5:39pm score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 2     Point no 1 - Moby ain't no DJ. He's a producer who happens to DJ on the side. Richie Hawtin, on the other hand, is a DJ who happens to produce. It's a subtle difference, but an important one. Point no 2 - DJing doesn't require top-notch gear, any more than being a crusty grunge dude does. Second-hand, pawn-shop turntables through a Radio Shack mixer are the equivalent of someone's brother's faded old Japanese Fender knock-off with white-out graffiti declaring undying love for obscure indie bands ten years dead. DJing is about wanting to spin tunes, not about making money. For kids into any variety of electronic/dance music (including hip hop, r'n'b, whatever) it's a legitimate way of becoming involved in the scene - which kids want to do. You remember high school, yeah? It's all about being in. If they can convince the parents to buy them the gear or the lessons, so much the better. Me, I got into tracking, then softsynths, now i got a leetle tiny record label. Yay me :)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   49.  Re: Oh, yeah, that's how Moby got big...   by Chasuk       at Mon 3 Mar 1:41am score of 1   in reply to comment 27     I'm not being sarcastic or disingenuous, and this isn't a flame or a troll. But I do have to ask: Who gives a fuck who spins the tunes? I don't care if it is some fat pimply geek, I'm not watching him or her, and this scratching shit is just annoying, anyway. I mean, put on a Winamp playlist, and half of those shakin' their asses wouldn't know the difference. I had a friend in the Air Force who could burp any tune imaginable. It was pretty impressive, and it had taken him years of practice. Literally, years. You wouldn't think there was any skill involved, until you actually heard him, and tried to duplicate what he did with such (seeming) ease. Isn't DJ'ing the same? I've tried DJ'ing, and I know its really fucking hard to do well. But who gives a shit? Why is it something that anyone would aspire to do? I mean, is being cool really so important? Do DJ's get more puusy, or what? Explain it to me, I don't get it. Neopets - the best free game on the Internet.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   50.  Well...   by vauxhal       at Mon 3 Mar 1:53am score of 1   in reply to comment 49     "I mean, put on a Winamp playlist, and half of those shakin' their asses wouldn't know the difference." Most people can't tell the difference between Chopin and Motzart. But there is a difference. Same goes for say... DJ Krush and DJ Shadow. gold teeth and the curse of this town were all in my mouth.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   54.  Re: Oh, yeah, that's how Moby got big...   by snarkism       at Mon 3 Mar 6:04am score of 1   in reply to comment 49     I mean, put on a Winamp playlist, and half of those shakin' their asses wouldn't know the difference. Uhhh, no. They would know the difference in about 10 seconds. Do you know anything about real DJing? snarkism That's using your ass.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

3.  Just to clarify..   by Mok       at Sun 2 Mar 8:37am score of 1     Most DJs are self-taught, but the article (found in the Wall Street Journal Print Edition) was talking about how more and more are needing lessons. Apparently even in a field where technique isn't as big as it is with other instruments (like violin and piano), there are still schools. I find that pretty absurd. And as for prices, as was stated in the queue, many instruments ARE expensive, but when you total the prices of all the equipment and records, DJing doesn't come out that much cheaper. And although beginner DJs don't need the best equipment, if they're going to shell out that much money on classes, they're going to need decent equipment to play sets. not as cool as the black table!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

5.  AWESOME!   by Thersites       at Sun 2 Mar 10:00am score of 2.5 informative     Speaking as one who took the piano lessons as a kid (and still do, sometimes :) ) and who just bought some DJ gear - I have to say that this article gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling inside. Some thoughts: 1) The rise of DJ schools won't threaten traditional instruments. 2) DJing and being a turntablist are both "legitimately difficult" arts, and their potential is barely tapped, which makes them exciting. 3) The cost of DJ equipment is comparable with some acoustic instruments. This is mostly due to the fact that you don't need to replace your DJ equipment if you decide to go pro (though many do). If you want to, say, play clarinet in a professional orchestra, you'll have to trade in your $200 plastic Yamaha for a $2000 wooden Buffet post-haste. The enormous cost of building a record library can be circumvented by using CD turntables and burning what you need (my plan). I'm not saying that DJing is ALWAYS on par or cheaper than learning an acoustic instrument, but it CAN be. 4) The cost of lessons for DJing (according to the write-up) is on par with acoustic instrument lessons. 5) A competent DJ can immediately get to making money by rocking the party. Making money with solo acoustic instruments is much much more difficult. 6) There are several good "DJ-in-a-box" kits going for $500 and under these days. So anyway, I'm excited by this. :) -Thr. www.civilizedpigdom.com   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

7.  you're full of it.   by coprolalia       at Sun 2 Mar 11:13am score of 3.5 compelling   in reply to comment 5     okay, right up front im going to admit to being both an aspiring DJ/turntablist and a vinyl snob. however: 2) DJing and being a turntablist are both "legitimately difficult" arts, and their potential is barely tapped, which makes them exciting. first off, DJing != turntablism. being a DJ requires about the same level of proficiency as playing PaRappa the Rappa. you could train a monkey to do it in less than a week or so, especially since so much of the music that is spun is no higher than 140 BPMs. as BPMs increase (like with jungle/drumnbass, gabber if youre feeling violent, or happy hardcore if youre feeling like a drug addled loveburger retard) the level of proficiency required to not make it sound like someone put a pair of shoes in the dryer (the preferred term is "trainwrecking") increases. i say that because all most people really do is beatmatch and work the equalizer. its not hard. there is a kind of art to figuring out what songs to play at any given time, to work the crowd or what have you, but this is peripheral as well - if you have good records, and you can beatmatch, then you're set. i know more than a few well-paid DJs with residencies that, were you to talk to them, you would instantly be amazed that someone so mindbogglingly stupid can even dress themselves, let alone get paid and laid like they do. [deep breath] Turntablist are another breed altogether. the difference between your standard house or trance DJ and a turntablist is roughly equivalent to the difference between Kenny G and Ornette Coleman. that shit takes skill and practice, and talent, and an incredible amount of patience. turntablism is an interpretive, improvisational form whereas the likes of paul oakenfold or paul van dyn are merely glorified jukeboxes. 3) The cost of DJ equipment is comparable with some acoustic instruments. while i will admit that the lower-end turntables have gotten a lot better in recent years from competition and market forces, you still get what you pay for. for many bedroom DJs, buying a couple of cheap belt drive tables for $200 each is all they will ever deal with, because you play with em, and you get discouraged. this is why most people will not hesitate to spend $1000 on a set of new tables, either Technics 1200s, or any of the numerous high end models Vestax makes. mixers too are important, and youre going to blow at least 200 bucks on that if you want it to last more than a few months, and again you get what you pay for. you're not paying so much for better sound, its the same damn wires and shit, but youre paying for durability. one of my technics tables was manufactured sometime before 1982. those things are built to withstand some serious abuse. thats a good $200 or more there, before records, and you still have to have a decent stereo to plug em into and a pair of good headphones (another $50, if youre cheap) and as for CD turntables.....jeez, i dont even want to get started on that issue. while it's true that there are some quality CD decks out there, youre still just beatmatching. even the really expensive "scratch" tables, or the stanton finalscratch device that hooks your turntables into your computer and maps them to digital audio files are woefully inadequate when it comes to scratching, and are limited FUNDAMENTALLY both by the amount of information (sampling rate) of the CD (44.1khz) and the ability of hardware to CORRECTLY interpolate the sounds being played at the various speeds youre playing them at when you scratch. i've heard it, and no matter what the big name scratch DJs say about it, theyre still getting the damn things for free. i have yet to see a digital "turntable" that didnt sound like ass when you tried to scratch on it. the ubiquity of CDs and digital music cannot be ignored though, and they are a useful adjunct - if you write a tune one night, you can be playing it out somewhere the same night. useful, but im not trading in my vinyl anytime soon. 5) A competent DJ can immediately get to making money by rocking the party. this too is patently false. if you want to play weddings and bar mitzvahs, maybe. those are not the kind of events that care about mixing though. to get paid gigs, first and foremost you have to have a reputation, and you cant just go out and buy that. 6) There are several good "DJ-in-a-box" kits going for $500 and under these days. If you want good equipment, buy used, learn a little bit of electronics, and fix it up yourself. if you want to be another one of the people that keep buying DJ in a box kits thinking that you're going to start making money at it from the get go, there are more than a few retailers who will be happy to separate you from your money, sucker. i'll be the first to admit, its a hell of a lot of fun. and even if youre not getting paid gigs all the time, its worth it if you enjoy the music. getting people dancing is a great feeling, but dont expect miracles. these people are perhaps filling a need, bu read the entire comment...   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   8.  Re: you're full of it.   by coprolalia       at Sun 2 Mar 11:46am score of 1   in reply to comment 7     thats a good $200 or more there should read $1200 My whole life is an empty exercise in mean spirited sarcasm. --gordon shumway   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   9.  Whoa whoa whoa!   by Thersites       at Sun 2 Mar 11:48am score of 1.5 nuanced   in reply to comment 7     I feel misrepresented. A few things: 1) I never said DJing = turntablism, and I thought I made it clear that they are different. Sure, one is harder than the other. Sure, they use different tools and aesthetics. I only meant that they are both new arts, and each has plenty of room to grow. 2) I'm sticking with my guns re: cost of turnable equipment versus acoustic instrument costs. You'll be spending the big bucks if you want a nice guitar, horn, piano, whatever. If anything, DJ equipment and the like is dropping in price while acoustic instruments are rising. 3) I only offered CD turntables as one choice that a DJ or turntablist (don't laugh - I intend to approach my own CD turntables in an artistic/improvisatory manner, and I haven't been disappointed so far) might make, and that making this particular choice eliminates the expensive costs of digging for vinyl. I acknowledge that this way is not for everyone, but I also know I'm not the only one making this decision. 4) "Weddings and bar mitzvahs" are how one gets started making money. Of course you can't just step into famous club X and start spinning on week one. You have to start small to build a reputation, and this is true for acoustic instrument players as well (jamming in the coffeehouses, playing local shows, etc.). It's not "patently false" that paying gigs start showing up from the get-go for DJs - they have a better chance at landing them early on than most musicians because they have a range and flexibility beyond any one particular electro-acoustic band. My view is this: don't let your particular aesthetic blind you to the possibilities and flexibility of an entire medium. And hey, if you want to talk shop and help a newbie out, I'm all ears. :) Message me or something. -Thr. www.civilizedpigdom.com   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   41.  Woah there, superstar.   by 6percent       at Sun 2 Mar 9:24pm score of 1.5 funny   in reply to comment 7     You must like the way the keys sound when you're typing, because you are definitely just sounding off when calling the previous poster to task. being a DJ requires about the same level of proficiency as playing PaRappa the Rappa. you could train a monkey to do it in less than a week or so If you want to be a half-assed dj, sure. I could teach you to beat match in a fairly short amount of time. But you still won't have any clue how to make a mix seamless, or how to pick out the appropriate records for a set. Make no mistake about it, the true art (and difficulty) of being a house music dj is in track selection. Or perhaps you're talking about being a radio dj . . . you say all you really need is a box full of good records and a pulse, and that's just remarkable horseshit. Playing out in a club requires connections, compentent track selection, technical knowledge of the equipment, and the ability to read a crowd. Unless you are playing out regularly, mister aspiring dj, I'll assume that you are missing one or all of those elements. as BPMs increase the level of proficiency required to not make it sound like someone put a pair of shoes in the dryer increases This is false to the point of stupidity. Faster dance music equates to faster transitions in the mix, which means you can be off by an order of magnitude. Hard house and d&b dj's offten use very, very short mixes, and all too often use soft mixes (using an intro that has no beat in it). This is bullshit mixing, and it's not difficult at all. You will never, NEVER see a HH or D&B dj hanging a mix out for 2 minutes . . . you see it quite often with house and tech house dj's. Get your facts straight before telling somebody they're full of it. For the record (he-he-he), I do play out every week, and I have for quite some time now. I work hard at what I do, because I love this music. It's not a game, and it's definitely not a damn party - when I go to work, I'm at work. It's not about hanging out with your friends, getting drunk and playing your favorite records. If it's so easy, why don't we see your name out there in big shiny lights? sixpercent. Oh, and I don't take requests.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   74.  Re: you're full of it.   by BlueHalo       at Mon 3 Mar 3:15pm score of 1.5 scholarly   in reply to comment 7     okay, right up front im going to admit to being both an aspiring DJ/turntablist and a vinyl snob. however: noted. being a DJ requires about the same level of proficiency as playing PaRappa the Rappa. you could train a monkey to do it in less than a week or so... if you want to be really specific here, the basic physical mechanics of playing most musical instruments is pretty simple, and i'm sure a monkey could learn to scratch a record as quickly as beatmatch a record. and most people will agree that beatmatching is pretty simple once you figure out what is going on, but that is not what dj-ing is, just like flipping a fader and scratching a record isn't what turntablism is all about. nobody goes to see a dj OR turntablist perform/play because they 'beatmatch well' or 'scratch records well'. it is because they enjoy the music the dj plays, and their presentation - the "flow"of the mix, if you will. ...especially since so much of the music that is spun is no higher than 140 BPMs. i'm trying to figure out your point here, and it seems that you are trying to say that because 'most' of the music that the 'typical' dj plays is at a slower tempo then it is easier to learn how to beatmatch it? i think that is pretty subjective. personally, i think lower tempo music is harder to beatmatch because any subtle changes to the pitch control to adjust the queued record to the live one is much more obvious than at a higher tempo. but you could probably argue that a faster tempo goes out of control more quickly... blah blah. this is so obviously subjective that it's pointless to argue either way. as BPMs increase (like with jungle/drumnbass, gabber if youre feeling violent, or happy hardcore if youre feeling like a drug addled loveburger retard) the level of proficiency required to not make it sound like someone put a pair of shoes in the dryer (the preferred term is "trainwrecking") increases. ok, so as the tempo increases (corresponding to your arbitrary categorization of several subgenres) it gets a little bit harder to not "trainwreck". well, perhaps for you. other's may highly enjoy spinning these higher tempo genres (that you obviously don't care for) and might actually suck at mixing lower tempo tracks instead. (like i do at hip-hop). i say that because all most people really do is beatmatch and work the equalizer. well it seems that because the physical movements of a dj are much simpler than a turntablist, they are of inferior skills/musical talent. i'm sorry, but i can't agree with that. complicated hand movements do not correspond to more inspired musical ability. some of the greatest music ever written is also some of the simplest. its not hard. there is a kind of art to figuring out what songs to play at any given time, to work the crowd or what have you, but this is peripheral as well... newsflash: if you play music that people enjoy, in a format that people can relate to, you will be considered a good musician. "working the crowd" is not peripheral if you are dj-ing for a crowd, and you have minimized "the art to figuring out what songs to play". if you didn't care what people thought at all about how you played, i doubt that you would play for crowds at all. they wouldn't want to listen to you anyways. a good musician plays what he/she loves, and plays for an audience that wants to hear what they are playing. ...if you have good records, and you can beatmatch, then you're set. i've seen dj's with a very small crate of records and not-so-great gear hold dozens of people in their grasp, dancing their asses off for hours. i've also seen dj's with piles and piles of records and the top of the line equipment who may have been able to 'beatmatch', but couldn't hold a single person's attention for more than a few moments. your formula isn't universal. i know more than a few well-paid DJs with residencies that, were you to talk to them, you would instantly be amazed that someone so mindbogglingly stupid can even dress themselves, let alone get paid and laid like they do. so you then lump every dj into the same category? we can all agree that there are many dj's (and other "professionals") who did little to earn their position, and it is illogical as to how they can stay where they are. also, great intelligence doesn't always equal musical ability, just as lack of intelligence doesn't mean someone cannot be a great musician. lots of great musicians have little to no social skills, and might be labeled as "stupid" or "unable to dress themselves", but they might just blow you away if you put aside your assumptions long enough to appreciate what they can do musically. Turntablist are another breed altogether. anyone who can appreciate a dj and a turntablist will agree whole-heartedly with you. unfortunately, because the less-informed lump the two together, the turntablists all too often become a bit snobby about what they do. just because it is different, doesn't mean it is better. read the entire comment...   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   10.  Re: Whoa whoa whoa!   by coprolalia       at Sun 2 Mar 12:15pm score of 1.5 helpful   in reply to comment 9     4) "Weddings and bar mitzvahs" are how one gets started making money. no, that wasnt my point at all. club work and mobile dj work are even farther apart than turntablism and "progressive" style mixing. one is arty, the other is utilitarian, and there is little to no crossover between the two. you build a reputation in the one one more or less independently of the other. at least until your "crew" "blows up." Thinking you can make money right off the bat from being a DJ is like thinking that you'll make money on beanie babies, baseball cards, or comic books. My whole life is an empty exercise in mean spirited sarcasm. --gordon shumway   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   14.  Re: Whoa whoa whoa!   by Thersites       at Sun 2 Mar 1:14pm score of 1   in reply to comment 10     club work and mobile dj work are even farther apart than turntablism and "progressive" style mixing. one is arty, the other is utilitarian, and there is little to no crossover between the two. Okay, point taken. However, notice that there is such a thing as utilitarian DJ work that will pay the rent, while there is no utilitarian solo clarinet work (for example) that will pay the rent. Art aside, DJ skills will get you work easier than acoustic instrument skills. That's what I was getting at. -Thr. www.civilizedpigdom.com   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   47.  Re: Woah there, superstar.   by coprolalia       at Mon 3 Mar 12:26am score of 1   in reply to comment 41     Faster dance music equates to faster transitions in the mix, which means you can be off by an order of magnitude. Hard house and d&b dj's offten use very, very short mixes, and all too often use soft mixes (using an intro that has no beat in it). This is bullshit mixing, and it's not difficult at all. You will never, NEVER see a HH or D&B dj hanging a mix out for 2 minutes . . . you see it quite often with house and tech house dj's. It takes all kinds, and while i'll admit that a lot of dnb and HHC djs do this, just as many do it with breaks, trance, house, and [insert genre here]. maybe you dont listen to enough dnb to hear the ones that do hang on a mix from breakdown to breakdown. For the record (he-he-he), I do play out every week, and I have for quite some time now. I work hard at what I do, because I love this music. It's not a game, and it's definitely not a damn party - when I go to work, I'm at work. It's not about hanging out with your friends, getting drunk and playing your favorite records. good for you. you want a cookie or something? If it's so easy, why don't we see your name out there in big shiny lights? as you mentioned yourself, a lot of it is about connections, and personally i find most promoters to be half a step up from personal injury attorneys on the "scum" scale. my unwillingness to whore out my love for music and take myself too seriously for a regular paying gig is also a factor. i have plenty of other skills, thanks. My whole life is an empty exercise in mean spirited sarcasm. --gordon shumway   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   78.  Re: you're full of it.   by snarkism       at Mon 3 Mar 5:14pm score of 1.5 nuanced   in reply to comment 74     +10 battleworthy yo! i speak at frequencies dogs would have trouble hearing canibus is the lyrical version of german engineering raw metaphors keep you high for months fly around the earth twice without refueling once ain't too many categories i can fit in when it comes to spittin' 'cause i'm over-qualified for the position the laser-guided lyrical hybrid creating scripts so sick i gotta arm-wrestle my pen to write it don't get excited 'cause if I ever catch one of you wannabees biting we gonna be fist-fighting so mother-fuckers, what you want? i got the shotgun, punk i possess the lyrical ammo to battle i'll rip any one of you warm-blooded mammals to sandals i'll make examples of you and eat a mouthful of your crew the kind of MC you can't outdo i battle you on the 'net i battle you in the flesh i battle you over the phone you can call me collect i battle you for the respect i battle you over a blank check i battle you with a gun to my neck i battle you standing over the toilet with my dick out i battle you juggling a hand-grenade with the pin out in a stolen car with the VIN number ripped out drinking a guinness stout doing a 360 spin-out I stay righteous like Farrakahn puffing on the marijuana you understand where i'm coming from? you're +1, and i'm -2 basically, that means I'm still better than you basic mathematics the verbal mechanics of rhyming i crush a piece of coal and create a diamond on the microphone i'm sicker than those who have acquired immune deficiency syndromes and every word i utter for hip-hop lovers will reflect forever like two mirrors facing each other the baddest m-other f-ucker let me break the style down so you don't have to wonder -Canibus That's using your ass.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

6.  Well, I'm trying anyway...   by TheMCP       at Sun 2 Mar 10:48am score of 2 clever     Big Briar Etherwave Theremin: $449 Copy of Clara Rockmore's "Method for Theremin": Free Trip to Moscow to ask Lydia Kavina for a lesson: $433 Mastering the world's most difficult musical instrument: Priceless. End of line.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

15.  Re: Well, I'm trying anyway...   by stet       at Sun 2 Mar 1:39pm score of 1   in reply to comment 6     I just bought myself a Pedal Steel and am willing to challenge you on that "World's Most Musical Instrument" title. I find that shifting from the B and C floor pedals to the left knee lever while swelling my volume pedal (a common maneuver) results, about half the time, in me falling backwards of my little seat. To play any given note I get to choose between ten strings and seven changes via the pedals and knee levers. So far I only know how to work four strings. The guitar cost me $800 and lessons run me $45/week and I'm getting off cheap. To continue your theme, however... The Slight But Very Real Possibility Of Meeting Actual Girls At My Seattle Professional Debut This Wednesday: Priceless. Good luck with the theremin. I hear Tom Waits had to cut the theremin parts from his latest two releases because he couldn't find a player. Sounds like he's hiring. 'Tis a good vibration indeed. "All of the juice had been sucked out/ Before Mel Bay taught us children to play"   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   84.  Re: Well, I'm trying anyway...   by TheMCP       at Tue 4 Mar 5:43pm score of 1   in reply to comment 15     I just bought myself a Pedal Steel and am willing to challenge you on that "World's Most Musical Instrument" title. I find that shifting from the B and C floor pedals to the left knee lever while swelling my volume pedal (a common maneuver) results, about half the time, in me falling backwards of my little seat. To play any given note I get to choose between ten strings and seven changes via the pedals and knee levers. So far I only know how to work four strings. Okay. Try playing it in the dark, after having local anesthetic applied to your hands, and the strings moved around into random locations. That's about what the theremin is like. You're moving your hands in air, so there is nothing to feel and there are no marks to indicate where the notes are. Also, the spacing between notes is not linear, it follows the inverse square rule with the emissions of the antennas: the closer you get to the theremin (the higher the note), the closer together the notes are. When you get to a high octive, you can't play if your hands are tired because any shaking of your hands will take you off note. Indeed, I had to lose weight before I could proceed with teaching myself because the instrument was detecting my belly moving as I breathed and there was a quiet "wah... wah... wah..." going on while I was trying to make notes with my hands. I hear Tom Waits had to cut the theremin parts from his latest two releases because he couldn't find a player. Pity, he could have just checked in with thereminworld.com to find a few. There's even one in my neighborhood. End of line.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   40.  Re: Well, I'm trying anyway...   by blisspix       at Sun 2 Mar 8:52pm score of 1   in reply to comment 6     cost of jaycar build it yourself theremin - $20! theremin's aren't that hard, I have a secret desire to learn to play the Hurdy-Gurdy   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

12.  I dunno   by newkindakick       at Sun 2 Mar 12:44pm score of 1     If I had $1k lying around, I'd blow it on records first, not fancy EQ. When it comes to kids who'd spend the money the other way round, EQ before records, I'm not sure I trust them to make good DJs. I wouldn't normally do this kinda thing   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

13.  Bleh   by eduardo       at Sun 2 Mar 12:46pm score of 1     At least they're skinny. J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

17.  Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by CelebratedMrK       at Sun 2 Mar 1:52pm score of 2 funny     For once, I do not feel guilty about my condescending tone. Turntablism? Pardon me, does that even deserve an "ism"? Surely, I am not the only one here who feels like an Albert Einstein studying physics with a bunch of fourth graders? Is this the great dumbing down of America they spoke about? Granted, beat matching is fun (oh yes, looking at that beats per minute counter is a tricky skill, but it can be learned) and playing other people's records on a turntable does require legit musical talent, but it does kinda pale in comparison to the skills required for playing a "real" instrument. You know the kind, where you gotta learn about tones, time and tempo, scales, chords, progressions, harmony, arpeggios... Any "skinny high school kids" here that spent countless nights trying to figure out the scratch pattern to a hip-hop song? Hmm...i'd think not. And all those who saw their self-esteem destroyed by Jimmy Page's guitar tuning, much less the solo, raise your hands. As Douglas Adams put it, this is the same civilization that thought digital watches were a cool idea.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

23.  Check it out   by trouscaillon       at Sun 2 Mar 3:42pm score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 17     Buy this and this as well as this and get back to us. Seriously, most turntablists are going to suck, just like any other musicians. But there's also a cream of the crop who do shit that you can't even dream about. It's interesting that your list of musical skills is all European harmony and melody, as against the African rhythm of the turntable and hip-hop. It's a debate that's been raging since the birth of jazz and I'd say it's pretty clear who's losing and who's not.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   24.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by hohesC       at Sun 2 Mar 3:53pm score of 1   in reply to comment 17     have you ever seen (and heard) a turntablist in action? what some of these guys with two hands is nothing short of amazing. whether it's worthy of an -ism, i don't know, i guess it just sounds nice. in my personal opinion, the word is also a way of poking fun at the people who try to degrade the skill of djs and the art of djing. ("you can play piano, but im good at an -ism!") And all those who saw their self-esteem destroyed by Jimmy Page's guitar tuning, much less the solo, raise your hands. oh, my self-esteem was not destroyed by a dj-set, but can remember shaking my head in utter disbelief when i heard (and saw) pf cuttin play for the first time. just because djing is much younger and has less supporters and fans than, say, the kind of music johnny page would make, doesn't make it less artistic! Granted, beat matching is fun (oh yes, looking at that beats per minute counter is a tricky skill, but it can be learned) and playing other people's records on a turntable does require legit musical talent, but it does kinda pale in comparison to the skills required for playing a "real" instrument. i think you are not being fair. mixing requires more than just looking at a bpm counter, actually, most "real" djs don't use even use one. it is done with the help of the ears, not the eye. real djing forces you to think of many things, as buildups, breaks, tempo, tone, atmosphere etc. if you want to, you can call them different, but djing isn't about words! djing with looking at a bpm counter or simply fading between songs is more like memorizing how to hold your right hand on a guitar trying to replay nirvana songs. the virtue and the skill some djs have displayed over the years (i am thinking of jeff mills in particular) would put most musicians around the world in deep embarrasement. as far as "simply playing other people's music" goes (i know you didn't say that), i think most people miss one point: the goal of a dj is not to play a 5-minute song, but to interlink numerous tracks into an hour-long weave and mesh of music that in itself is a song againg. as a disclaimer: i am not talking about kids playing music at a wedding here... yes. no.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   26.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by willb       at Sun 2 Mar 5:33pm score of 3 scholarly   in reply to comment 17     As a classically trained musician (piano/flute/voice) from age 5, guitarist in numerous bands throughout school and Uni, and now paid DJ and aspiring (if less than inspiring) turntablist, I can say without any hesitation (and with as much condescension as I can muster) that you are talking pure, unadulterated horseshit.   You try and equate turntablism with beat-matching. You seriously think that aspiring DJs don't try to figure out the scratch patterns of the great DJs. I doubt you would be able to tell Prime Cuts from Rob Swift. You obviously know nothing about the subject, although that doesn't stop you thinking you're Einstein. Just because you're still trying to play Stairway To Heaven, doesn't mean everyone else hasn't moved on. TMBYFC   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   33.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by silver222       at Sun 2 Mar 8:02pm score of 1 obnoxious   in reply to comment 26     As a classically trained musician (piano/flute/voice) from age 5, guitarist in numerous bands throughout school and Uni, and now paid DJ and aspiring (if less than inspiring) turntablist Wow, I bet your parents really wish in hindsight that they would have bought that Cadillac or pushed you into baseball. All that classical training wasted. Nice to see it hasn't stopped you from developing that arrogant snob attitude about a niche hobby that you're interested in though....   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   48.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by eeksypeeksy       at Mon 3 Mar 12:47am score of 1   in reply to comment 26     The only thing that matters is the sound. Does anyone have some links to free sound files that would reveal to the uninitiated the sound of some world-class turntablists at work? And maybe you could add some commentary, like what parts to listen to, what they are doing to get that sound, and why you think they are so good.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   38.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by OneWingedAngel       at Sun 2 Mar 8:48pm score of 1   in reply to comment 33     And silver222 is what we in the "urbanized areas" call a "player hater." I guess it's not considered kosher to establish oneself an expert in a field around here, cos, by golly, that means someone knows more about a subject than you do?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   39.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by willb       at Sun 2 Mar 8:51pm score of 1   in reply to comment 33     I don't get your point. What makes you think I am especially privileged? I went to a music school from a young age and I have used my classical music training throughout my life, and continue to do so in my job (which is not being a DJ). It's been more useful to me than most other shit I learnt at school. As for snob attitude, it's nothing of the sort. I get pissed off at people criticising shit that they obviously know fuck all about. TMBYFC   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   59.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by snarkism       at Mon 3 Mar 6:46am score of 1   in reply to comment 48     Does anyone have some links to free sound files that would reveal to the uninitiated the sound of some world-class turntablists at work? I don't think it works that way. Turntablism is usually a live performance. Recordings can give you a hint of it, but you really need to see the performances in the flesh - to witness the virtuosity, and how they respond to the audience. It's all about interaction. Recordings don't provide that. Besides, most people have crappy sound systems hooked up to their computers, so it wouldn't really be adequate anyway. snarkism That's using your ass.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   62.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by eeksypeeksy       at Mon 3 Mar 7:16am score of 1   in reply to comment 59     No recording beats a good live symphony orchestra, but a recording does give a fair idea of the music for which everyone attends the concert. Similarly, there is no recording like a good live rock show, but people do enjoy the recordings immensely and get a good idea from recordings of what they'll hear at a show. If sound recordings don't show the worth of turntable performance, maybe people are wasting their time talking about it as music and comparing it to the virtuosity of playing, for example, the piano.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   63.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by snarkism       at Mon 3 Mar 7:26am score of 1   in reply to comment 62     If sound recordings don't show the worth of turntable performance, maybe people are wasting their time talking about it as music and comparing it to the virtuosity of playing, for example, the piano. Oh yeah, the recordings are very enjoyable. But a compressed random recording from the internet is magnitudes different to a CD or vinyl played over a proper sound system. Like I said, you need a good sound system and audio file. Listening to an MP3 is not the same. Even if you could find a recording. Thanks to the RIAA, it is unlikely that you could find one that is legally, publicly available. Even if you do meet all the criteria above, you need a listener who is open minded. Considering that most people have crap speakers attached to their computer, and that MP3s suck, and that most Plasticians are very close-minded when it comes to music preference, I doubt that linking to an audio file will achieve anything useful. snarkism That's using your ass.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   65.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by eeksypeeksy       at Mon 3 Mar 8:08am score of 1   in reply to comment 63     Even if you do meet all the criteria above, you need a listener who is open minded. I hope the intended implication is not that someone who doesn't like it must be close-minded. Many people you would call open-minded like some kinds of music and not other kinds. In any case, if someone knows of an online recording of a turntable performance worth listening to, I wish they would link it. If there's something good to hear, some special talent on display, I think people will hear it and the argument will be settled.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   76.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by snarkism       at Mon 3 Mar 3:57pm score of 1   in reply to comment 65     I hope the intended implication is not that someone who doesn't like it must be close-minded. Not at all. Witness this thread. There are some total idiots around. People who think DJing is the same as rapping. People who think that electronic music cannot be music. People who think any form of dance music is invalid. Thes people have already closed their minds, to the point they can't open their ears and listen. Maybe I should have said "open ears" rather than mind. In any case, it takes time - anything you have not heard before is likely to take quite a few listens before you get into it. snarkism That's using your ass.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   81.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by kuuba       at Tue 4 Mar 4:41am score of 1   in reply to comment 65     Kid Koala: Emperors Main Course in Cantonese Coldcut: More Beats & Pieces (DJ Lord Fader turntable mix) X-ecutioners: Journey Into Sound All are rather short and not that great quality but,..   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   30.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by OneWingedAngel       at Sun 2 Mar 7:43pm score of 1.5 informative   in reply to comment 17     And just to beat up on your silly, egotistical, stupid, and misinformed little post even more, let me point out that DJ'ing and turntablism are two distinct disciplines. Beat matching is DJ'ing. The playing of a turntable as a musical percussion instrument and not just a playback device is turntablism. Turntablism is most present in hip-hop, as it was a term coined by hip-hop DJ's to distinguish themselves from ordinary playback DJ's. And frankly, the vast majority of dance DJs are not turntablists. DJ Qbert, Mixmaster Mike, DJ Babu, etc. are turntabists. Paul Van Dyk, Moby, and Fatboy Slim are not.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   60.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by petrilli       at Mon 3 Mar 6:56am score of 1   in reply to comment 30     Don't forget Kid Koala, and Scratchratchratchratch, if you can find it. It was generally released as a 10" promo only, but it is "floating around," if you know what I mean. "Television is bubble-gum for the mind." -- Frank Lloyd Wright   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   56.  Re: Which way to Carnegie Hall?   by snarkism       at Mon 3 Mar 6:18am score of 1   in reply to comment 17     You know the kind, where you gotta learn about tones, time and tempo, scales, chords, progressions, harmony, arpeggios... Skilful turntablism does actually involve all of the elements you mention above. (oh yes, looking at that beats per minute counter is a tricky skill, but it can be learned You show your ignorance here. Pray tell, how can you beat match, just by looking at the (often inaccurate) BPM rading on a cheap mixer? No professional turntablist I know even uses the BPM counter. Professional mixers usually don't even have one. It's not just a matter of knowing the BPMs. You also have to be able to start the bats on time, and be able to recover from scratching while holding the rhythm. snarkism That's using your ass.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

18.  Fame Shmame   by fungrrl       at Sun 2 Mar 1:57pm score of 1     Even with all the classes and parental support, the vast majority of these pint-size DJs never really get beyond gigs in their basement, school, and friends' birthday parties. Unlike the all the budding pianists, and all the jobs that will be waiting for them after a couple successful recitals? Most DJ's play because they love testing their own boundries, and who wouldn't want to make friends with a guy or gal that will play the night away? In this particular sub-culture, fame and fortune mean very little. I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. -Ishmael   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

20.  Virtual DJing anyone?   by somebaudy       at Sun 2 Mar 2:41pm score of 1     In my humble opinion, the virtual DJing (mixing mp3 files that mysteriously landed on your hard drive) is a better way of learning the art (craft?) of DJing. Many months ago, I've stumbled upon a winamp plugin that allowed just that but I haven't been able to find a link to it. [sig]"insert something witty here"   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

57.  Re: Virtual DJing anyone?   by snarkism       at Mon 3 Mar 6:26am score of 1   in reply to comment 20     In my humble opinion, the virtual DJing (mixing mp3 files that mysteriously landed on your hard drive) is a better way of learning the art (craft?) of DJing. Good luck (you'll need it). A second hand turntable and mixer is cheaper than a a computer, and much more effective. Perhaps 50% of the DJs I know don't own a computer. Many wouldn't even know how to us one. Yet they create more "technological" sounding music than many computer artists. snarkism That's using your ass.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

28.  Benefits of Music . . .Despite cost   by Red Monarch       at Sun 2 Mar 6:19pm score of 1     Well, by most means I'm still considered a "kid" but I find myself in plastic to learn more about the world of which I will soon be thrust into. I don't know if anyone has mentioned this point yet, but even though DJ'ing equipment is costly, it gives people my age something to do rather than hang out at malls and yell at the elderly. I have immersed myself in music and have reaped the benefits. Music is someting worthwhile learning about and getting into, even it will cost a lot of money to begin. After all, for every minute we spend DJ'ing it's a minute we don't spend drinking or smoking :). That's my 2 cents. Let them eat cake   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

29.  Re: Benefits of Music . . .Despite cost   by coprolalia       at Sun 2 Mar 7:30pm score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 28     After all, for every minute we spend DJ'ing it's a minute we don't spend drinking or smoking :) you must not actually know any DJs then. My whole life is an empty exercise in mean spirited sarcasm. --gordon shumway   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   31.  Re: Benefits of Music . . .Despite cost   by Pravda       at Sun 2 Mar 7:53pm score of 1.5 funny   in reply to comment 28     Well, by most means I'm still considered a "kid" but I find myself in plastic to learn more about the world of which I will soon be thrust into. Jesus Christ, kid. On behalf of Plastic I most sincerely apologize. Seen in the subQ: "For once I have to +Pravda. Scary. - Anonymouse Savant"   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   36.  Re: Benefits of Music . . .Despite cost   by musiquestar       at Sun 2 Mar 8:19pm score of 1   in reply to comment 28     "it gives people my age something to do rather than hang out at malls and yell at the elderly." I used to go to punk shows instead. Random and pointless. Whatever part of whatever music scene* you want to get into, it's most likely a worthwhile way to grow up. You broaden your exposure far more than you would by spending days at the mall, and usually get other aspects (DIY, politics, etc.) tied in with the music occassionally for good measure. Have fun. *Anything from the Ms. Spears and "nu metal" lines of music not qualifying as a scene or worthwhile music in general. Your fantasies are unlikely, but beautiful.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

32.  Does this mean...   by bokeh       at Sun 2 Mar 7:55pm score of 1     ...that these places are now obsolete? If there is a Universal Mind, must it be sane? --Charles Fort   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

34.  Ninja Training Arcade   by Blarney       at Sun 2 Mar 8:03pm score of 1     Wonder if it's anything like Kid Koala's "Ninja Training Arcade" from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

35.  What I'm thinking...   by MrFadedGlory       at Sun 2 Mar 8:05pm score of 1     ...is that the more serious DJ's out there will be reaping the rewards of this 'revolution' in about a year. Let me explain. I play guitar. Not very well, but it's a hobby and keeps me off the streets. I have 3 guitars at the moment. A sweet Takamine PT108 Japan only issue that I piked up in Tokyo, a Fender Telecaster and Maton 12 string. The last two I got second hand, in almost new condition. I got them cheap. Real cheap. Why? Both were purchased privately from parents who had bought them because Junior expressed an interest in the guitar. They were wealthy and excited that the little misanthrope wanted to do more than just sit around playing video games all day. ^ months later when these fine instruments were gathering dust in the corner, they decided to cut their losses and seel the instruments to salvage some cash, if not hope for their kid's future. Same thing's going to happen here. Rich parents shelling out big bucks for the best equipment, kid showing no talent (or more importantly, no application) then they look to get the stuff turned over for the next craze. All you aspiring DJ's out there will be laughing. I don't see anything wrong with these schools. At the end of the day, it will still come down to talent. My guitar teacher teaches me the same thing he teaches the 13 year old I share the lesson with. I hear it and the kid hears it. He can do it perfectly inside 20 minutes...I'm still practicing and fumbling my way through. I enjoy myself, but I will never get any further than that. The kid though is destined for something great. These DJ schools will turn out hundreds of guys like me, but they will also be the place that spawn the next Sister Bliss or Norman Cooke. Surely that's legitimate. ::M aka, Michael (Plastic)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

45.  Education   by BloodyWallet       at Sun 2 Mar 11:26pm score of 1   in reply to comment 35     You make a good point. I mean the question comes down to education in general. Why do we teach all these kids biology if they aren't going to become the next Darwin, Mendel, etc.? Why do we make kids read Moby Dick, A Tale of Two Cities, Catcher in the Rye, etc. and make them write essays about them? It's not like they are going to write a novel one day. We educate kids to introduce them to the world, and basically force feed them everything until they find something they like. So what if a kid takes lessons at something and then quits a short time later? He found something that he didn't like that much; ok move on to something else. So I think this movement is good, it's just the logical progression from fringe past-time to full-fledged art form.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   82.  Re: What I'm thinking...   by Grouse       at Tue 4 Mar 5:17am score of 1   in reply to comment 35     These DJ schools will turn out hundreds of guys like me, but they will also be the place that spawn the next Sister Bliss or Norman Cooke. I disagree. Surely the truly great DJs/turntablists are the ones who do something different, who are not taught a structured, linear way of playing. And I don't believe that this "x-factor" can be taught at a DJ school. As an example: I decided to learn to play Guitar in the early '90s, just as grunge 'broke'. My parents, relieved that I had picked up a past time beyond just hanging out on street corners, gladly paid up for some guitar lessons. My guitar teacher was the sort of guy who liked to teach classic rock guitar solos in major chords and thought the height of cool would be to grow your hair so long you could "tie it round your waist like a belt". I learnt how to play completely souless solos; I even jammed with some of his other students where we produced flawless renditions of souless 12 bar blues, with an accompanying bassline. Needless to say, we didn't get very far. My point is that good music, electronic or otherwise, cannot be created via an assembly line. Which is what these schools are. Most of these schools are more likely to destroy the individualism that makes great music great. Sure it might churn out hundreds of new wedding Djs a year, but so what? They're just as mindless as the horrible manufactured pop acts that currently dominate the UK charts. Souless 12 bar blues, souless manufactured pop or souless DJing - its all just the same thing. You can't teach soul, brother ;-) And, of course, playing/DJing at a wedding means you're struck off the artistic list for ever and always   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

37.  but   by blisspix       at Sun 2 Mar 8:48pm score of 1.5 interesting     don't many of today's top musicians and producers also have knowledge of classical music that helped them understand music theory, and thus spin better tunes? This whole thing seems dumb to me. Besides, DJing is cheap as compared to say, figure skating. cost of skates: $1500 twice a year cost of costumes: $1000 a year cost of lessons: 6 times a week x 1hr = up to around $300 a week cost of ice time: can range from $100/w - infinitely more depending on location cost of mum and skater living in apartment in different city from dad and other siblings - astronomical cost to pay for coach to attend competitions 4-5 times per year - cost of weekly lessons x 5 not to mention the cost of tests, a physio, ballet lessons, pilates classes, nutritionist, weights classes, private school tuition (by correspondence), etc etc ad infinitum. And this isn't just for elites, but for anyone who skates at a better than regional level. Even at my very junior level my parents were paying out about $2000 a year So yeah, the only way to make a return on that investment is to win Gold at the olympics and immediately retire to endorsements and mickey mouse shows.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

42.  A great movie about DJing and the like...   by vauxhal       at Sun 2 Mar 10:04pm score of 1.5 informative     is Scratch. It is an amazing dictionary, and some of the stuff these dudes do is crazy. Especially the scene with one of the guys from the X-Ecutioners. That dude is crazy good. gold teeth and the curse of this town were all in my mouth.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

43.  hey wedding DJ can you play that one song for me?   by mrradon       at Sun 2 Mar 10:25pm score of 0.5 disingenuous     Did any big name turntablists ever go to a DJ school? You don't have to go to DJ school to become a wedding DJ either. You have to spend countless time listening to music, playing with equipment, and figuring out how to put things together. If you can't draw connections between sounds or beats/rhythms/tempos, classes aren't going to help you. And no class is going to guarantee fame. There are people out there who have been mixing for years and years, and who have never received the kind of fame other boring and overrated people have. And even so, the way musical trends and styles evolve, who's to say that in one, two, or five years, what some people with records have been doing is even going to be relevant any more? Turntablism is so five minutes ago -- depending on what a DJ does. These kids can maybe hope to land wedding DJ jobs, or work in some small club playing crap they wish they didn't have to. What would be far more impressive is to learn how to play an instrument, because unlike playing other peoples music, there will always be some need for the people to make the music spun in the first place.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

46.  -1 Obnoxious, and I don't care.   by OneWingedAngel       at Sun 2 Mar 11:34pm score of 1   in reply to comment 43     Turntablism is so five minutes ago -- depending on what a DJ does. Ahem. Turntablism is not mere DJ'ing. I already wrote on the subject in this thread but people on Plastic seem content on throwing around big words they don't know the meaning of here. Learning an instrument? Turntablism turns a set of turntables into an instrument. A percussive instrument, to be exact. Don't take my word for it, ask this Berklee School of Music professor. And like rock guitar, you don't do turntablism in a wedding. I swear, this is one of the most frustrating threads I've ever seen on Plastic, all due to know-it-all posters who think they know everything because of their excessive self-worth. Even the writeup is clueless; it's incredibly obvious Paul Van Dyk is known much more for his original pieces, where turntables are not used at all. And synths has just as much a place as trumpets in DJ'ing, which are none at all except on the records being played.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   52.  Re: -1 Obnoxious, and I don't care.   by CelebratedMrK       at Mon 3 Mar 5:38am score of 1   in reply to comment 46     Yeah, citing a DJing professor from the Berklee School of Music somehow makes the art form seriously challenging, exciting and involving. The same professors who taught 17 year olds the world over that playing 16th notes and 32nd notes on the guitar was the only goal worth pursuing? Cool.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   70.  Re: -1 Obnoxious, and I don't care.   by OneWingedAngel       at Mon 3 Mar 9:10am score of 1   in reply to comment 52     My citing of a Berklee professor is more authoritative than your citing of your ignorance and cynicism, you must admit.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

44.  AHHH DJS   by aqua necromancer       at Sun 2 Mar 11:20pm score of 1 irrelevant     DJs (the ones that play records not make them) are to electronic music as rollerbladers are to skateboarding. nuff said.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

58.  Re: AHHH DJS   by snarkism       at Mon 3 Mar 6:39am score of 1   in reply to comment 44     DJs (the ones that play records not make them) are to electronic music as rollerbladers are to skateboarding. Except that the DJs (turntablists to be precise) OFTEN teach the "music makers" a thing or two, and are music-makers in their own right. Apart from being completely wrong, your opinion is otherwise ... something. snarkism That's using your ass.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   80.  Re: AHHH DJS   by aqua necromancer       at Mon 3 Mar 8:56pm score of 1.5 succinct   in reply to comment 58     if i had meant turntablists i would have said turntablists but i said D-J a.k.a DISC JOCKEY.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   67.  Re: AHHH DJS   by abelincolnjr       at Mon 3 Mar 8:45am score of 0.5 modappeal   in reply to comment 44     Would that I had Karma to heap on your post...you would be Karma Rich. Now that irony is dead, all I have left is shitty taste in music. Abe Lincoln Jr.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   79.  Re: AHHH DJS   by aqua necromancer       at Mon 3 Mar 8:49pm score of 1 modappeal   in reply to comment 67     YAY!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   83.  Re: AHHH DJS   by kuuba       at Tue 4 Mar 5:37am score of 1   in reply to comment 44     Thanks for proving your ignorance! Most big-name DJ's (at least over here in Europe where all the DJ's mentioned in the writeup are from) gain their status by making good music. For proof, let's check out the DJ magazine top 5 DJ's and see their music-making background: 1. Tiesto Yup, sure looks like a producer too 2. Sasha Him too. Odd. 3. John Digweed Well, not too many productions on his own, but certainly makes records too. 4. Paul Van Dyk Lots of releases. 5. Armin Van Buuren Not that many releases, but plenty of collaborations and remixes. Admitted, there are top-class DJ's that have made their name some other way than making records (Judge Jules, Pete Tong), but making excellent music is the best way to get proper recognition in the field.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

51.  Sure you can be taught scratching and mixing   by chatsubo       at Mon 3 Mar 2:44am score of 1     but the breathtaking arrogance, homicidal one-upmanship and extreme anti-social tendencies of a true DJ can only come from within. (Though Mr. C. is a lovely man, and if he is reading this, how about a months worth of free passes to The End) Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

61.  Bass Ackwards   by jdioguardi       at Mon 3 Mar 7:01am score of 1     Is it time to tune that violin one last time, then abandon it for a synthesizer? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't someone have to create the music that gets spun on those turntables? somewhere in Texas a village is missing its idiot.........   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

64.  Re: Bass Ackwards   by snarkism       at Mon 3 Mar 7:34am score of 1   in reply to comment 61     Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't someone have to create the music that gets spun on those turntables? Not really. A lot of the records spun by turntablists are actually sound effects records, or minimal beats. They aren't actually "playing music", but creating it from th raw sounds on the vinyl. Anyway - if you get a Vestax Vinyl Cutter, you can create your own music on your computer, and then be mixing it up in a club less than an hour later. snarkism That's using your ass.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   73.  Re: Bass Ackwards   by iron monkey       at Mon 3 Mar 1:59pm score of 1   in reply to comment 64     yeah... This actually reminds me of an article I was reading about Portishead's self-titled sophomore album. The article said that they a lot of what you heard would be material that they recorded themselves on to vinyl. They'd then scuff up the vinyl to get the dusty, scratchy sound so prevalent on that album's tracks. It's particularly amusing me to see how much of the time/effort spent in today's "digital" world is aimed at reproducing or perfecting "old school" analog tech. And a lot of the naysayers here seem to be of the (woefully) mistaken belief that technology makes things easier, that it makes the arts a push-button affair. This is simply untrue for anything of value. As evidenced by my prefacing anecdote (and in so many other mediums and situation), having technology typically means you do more work to produce compelling work. (Notice that I did qualify with "compelling": this does not apply at the DIY level of soccer moms with digicams and photoshop, or slackers with winamp. ) Shut up and look, I'm the winner! Take a gander...you're short and frazzled like Gilda Radner. //Mike Ladd   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

69.  seems like the new "rebel" instrument to me...   by CynThetiQ       at Mon 3 Mar 8:58am score of 1     Like drums and electric guitar before it... as far as it being a 'school' okay... call it what you want, try to legitimize it however you want. It's still someone who has a skill that someone else wants and is getting paid time for money to show that other person how to become proficient at that said skill. Plastic is synthetic, and so are mine. ( . Y . )   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]