Reason Online Sucks
	found on The Village Voice written by Humberto, edited by John (Plastic) [ read unedited ] posted Tue 28 Jan 11:19am
		"Writing in the Village Voice, Cynthia Cotts takes a look at Reason Online and examines its 'snarkier, punkier attitude,' which she traces back to our dearly departed Suck," writes Humberto. "Cotts finds former Suck editor Tim Cavanaugh at the helm of Reason's web edition and discovers that several contributors are former Sucksters, all the way up to Reason editor in chief Nick Gillespie. With features such as a 'revived' Hit and Run and cartoons by Peter Bagge, is Reason becoming a potential heir to the Suck legacy?"

[ more plastic... ]    

show almost all: 34 commentsbest: 7 comments by oldest first (ignore threads) newest first highest scores first oldest first newest first (ignore threads)

1.  A potential heir, surely   by richlove       at Tue 28 Jan 11:43am score of 2 astute     ... but nothing will fill that void without reviving 'Filler'. Oh, Polly, if there ever were a time for giant canadian crack-smoking rabbits, it'd be now.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

2.  Peter Bagge   by profwhat       at Tue 28 Jan 12:03pm score of 1     Peter Bagge! So, is he the guy who drew all of Plastic's icons? I was a big fan of Suck circa 1995, before the age of the tag or style sheets, when it nonetheless had a weird and distinctive look with its double-spaced lines of text. As much of a fan as I am of Mr. Bagge's work, I started to read Suck less when it featured more and more cartoons and less snarky, punky writing.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

3.  Re: Peter Bagge   by aml       at Tue 28 Jan 12:13pm score of 1.5 informative   in reply to comment 2     terry colon. bagge did some stuff for suck, but if you'll note the styles, colon did the majority. The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   27.  Peter Bagge & Terry Colon did most of the icons   by BigBoote66       at Wed 29 Jan 12:23pm score of 1   in reply to comment 2     Bagge's style is usually "zanier" (the icons for Sports, Flame War, Protest, etc), whereas Colon's is generally more sterile (the icons for the Internet, "W" politics icon, TV, pornography). There are a few don't look like either's work, so I'm not sure who did them; the mysterious War chipmunk, Space, School & Living seem to be don by the same artist; I don't know who did Canadians. -BbT   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   28.  OT: Icons   by sulli       at Wed 29 Jan 12:51pm score of 1   in reply to comment 27     We need more of them. I wonder if Carl and/or MAYORBOB could talk Terry and Peter into producing a few more, and/or give members the chance to contribute? Icons I think we need ASAP: - Middle East - France - Russia - Europe - Men - Politics:2004 Election - Korea I'm sure there are more... Tout abus sera puni   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   34.  Re: Peter Bagge & Terry Colon did most of the   by 6StringSamurai       at Thu 30 Jan 12:46pm score of 1   in reply to comment 27     Some of the icons are by Phil Bond (New York City, Travel, Failure, Space, School, Living, Kids, and Wrr are his, among others). He worked with Polly on a couple of Suck features in 2000. "I beg to differ, and on the contrary, I agree with every word that you say." - Green Day   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

6.  Hmmm...   by gonzocanuck       at Tue 28 Jan 12:26pm score of 2 astute     It may sound like Suck, walk like Suck, but is it Suck? I don't know...I think Suck was there at the right time with the right combination of people. You know, it's like when a great band breaks up, and two of the members form a new band, but it's not quite as good... Heather Havrilesky has an article in Salon today, and if you miss Terry Colon and G. Beato (can't recall his Suck name), there's always Cooking With Bigfoot. You've got to coax him slow, that's the only way that he'll confess.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

7.  whoops!   by gonzocanuck       at Tue 28 Jan 12:35pm score of 1   in reply to comment 6     Sorry, Terry Colon does not do Cooking With Bigfoot...not sure why I thought that. You've got to coax him slow, that's the only way that he'll confess.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   14.  Re: Hmmm...   by cichlisuite       at Tue 28 Jan 3:37pm score of 2 informative   in reply to comment 6     Heather "Polly Esther" Havrilesky also has her own blog* (but then, who doesn't?) *URL may not be work-safe - of course, you read it before you clicked on it, right?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

8.  Reason.com - Making Social Darwinism Fun Again!   by phenry       at Tue 28 Jan 12:40pm score of 5 brilliant     Admittedly it's been a while since I visited Suck, but I don't recall the original Hit and Run ever being a second-rate clone of Instapundit (though fortunately without any references to "Fisking"...yet). If Thomas Frank were here (and, thank goodness, he's not), he might have something to say about Reason, the ultimate champions of the overdog, appropriating hipster cred by co-opting its creators, and indeed the new regime has lent the site a punch it did not have before (although somebody needs to inform the Village Voice that The New Republic beat Reason to the "Axle of Evil" headline by a week). Ultimately, though, Reason can pile on all the retro-90s snark it wants to, and at the end of the day it's still just Alan Greenspan in sunglasses. Where the Voice sees the spirit of Joey and Carl I just see the usual libertarian foolishness, and what's so new about that? courtesy of phenry phh | Away for 3 years and still in the karma top 50! Woo hoo!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

25.  "Suck" wasn't...   by Hiro Agonistes       at Wed 29 Jan 9:40am score of 1   in reply to comment 8     ...full of business groupies. With the exception of copyright law, Reason seems to be firmly in the partying-Republicans camp of libertarianism.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

9.  One can only hope...   by rdww       at Tue 28 Jan 1:46pm score of 1     Oh for the days of Polly and her angry little squirrel, and the slacker, and the Fish and... (a pre-millenial flashback attack bursts through here, looking disturbingly like an outtakes reel from Friends). Still, the Suck/libertarianism connection is intriguing. Anyone here want to engage in a pointless debate on whether libertarianism should more accurately be classed as a religion rather than a political philosophy?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

11.  Re: One can only hope...   by gaspacho       at Tue 28 Jan 3:04pm score of 1   in reply to comment 9     Anyone here want to engage in a pointless debate on whether libertarianism should more accurately be classed as a religion rather than a political philosophy? Naw, Objectivism is the religion. Libertarianism is more properly classed as an Aesthetic. This explains why Libertarians can still have a sense of humor, unlike their somewhat more high-strung capital-O cousins. socialism is bad!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

10.  Village Voice slow to pick up this trend   by scotay       at Tue 28 Jan 2:00pm score of 2 funny     We've been posting Reason stories from Suck alums for over a year. I guess the village voice doesn't spend a lot of time frequenting libertarian rags. I'm am curious as to whether the Suck alums themselves felt libertarian before they started cashing Reason's paychecks or do they subtly target their essays towards the audience or does Tim just pick the works that fit Reason's editorial stance? Well, this libertarian is off to my library wing of Ayn Rand first editions where I like to polish my gold bullion and the big, black boots I take to the windpipes of poor people.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

23.  Re: Village Voice slow to pick up this trend   by Richard Banks       at Wed 29 Jan 5:11am score of 1   in reply to comment 10     I don't know what they felt, but yes, Tim's Suck (he exercised remarkable editorial control near the end) often took positions that could be embraced by Libertarians and libertines alike. "I'm Against This War. But I'm not with These Other People."   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

12.  Deconstruct this!   by plutocracywatch       at Tue 28 Jan 3:08pm score of 2 brilliant     What's left after no end to the drug war, no free market revolution, and no end to the official Inquisition Against Every Human Imperfection. Reason went cultural because ideology, especially libertarianism, was declared dead by the cognoscenti. Call me old-fashioned but I miss the legacy of freedom the Enlightenment and that Age of Reason bequeathed us. read   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

13.  Re: Deconstruct this!   by Remo1       at Tue 28 Jan 3:11pm score of 1   in reply to comment 12     So do I, my brother, so do I.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   15.  Re: Deconstruct this!   by arnaut       at Tue 28 Jan 5:57pm score of 1   in reply to comment 12     Gratify me, if you would, and unpack your comment a little bit. Thanks. Poi s'ascose nel foco che gli affina.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   26.  Re: Deconstruct this!   by plutocracywatch       at Wed 29 Jan 9:48am score of 1.5 scholarly   in reply to comment 15     Parse my own words! Eat your heart out Bill Clinton. The end of ideology is what the chattering classes consensus is as explained in Fukuyama's early 90's classic: THE END OF HISTORY. The thrust is that democratic corporatism is the only viable model of organizing a successful society. Monarchism, mercantilism, laissez faire, and communism all fell into the ash heap of history, with no viable contenders on the horizon. This ideological aspect of this assessment is correct if unfortunate IMHO, China and Osama not withstanding. A segment of the libertarian movement was an attempt to resurrect the classical liberal, laissez faire society whose closest parallel was the post-Reconstruction through pre-Progressive America of the north and west. There was another libertarian wing that endorsed the anarcho-capitalist model untried in human history, an example of anti-historical, sci-fi utopianism. The LP peaked in 1980. Since the Craniaks of the CATO Institute left in 1983, the party has never approached its earlier successes. Today it has fallen into the grip of conmen and hustlers. So Reason - always a peculiar mix of Randian, libertarian, and economic growth influences, moved, in its post-Postrel editorship, away from its "free minds, free markets" ideology toward battling the culture wars. It's a dirty job but someone needs to defend drug use, pornography, free choice, and secularism. One attack the religious right makes is on the Enlightenment, which secularized and freed European and American society. The American and French revolutions were products of the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason. Two conflicting visions surfaced: the Tragic and the Utopian. The Tragic views the world as fallen (as a reality not a Biblical curse) and humanity imperfectible. As Madison noted, if men were angels government would be unnecessary. The Utopian denies human nature, endorsing the nurture, environmental impact in shaping individuals and societies. Hence the serial if failed utopian experiments in the public and private spheres from the Jacobin Terror to the Zionist kibbutz to the Soviet's new man to the Great Society. Because the goal of perfecting people is unobtainable, the process of liberating people reverts into its reciprocal - personal subjugation and collective tyranny. The Inquisition Against Every human Imperfection protests the social Leninism of the contemporary anti-Enlightenment so-called conservatives and the so-called liberals, both of whom use the power of the state to coercive conformity by employing the gun, the club, and the cage to destroy people whenever and wherever they reveal an imperfection. Sin and bad choices become criminalized. Vengeance is thine own saith the social crusader. So all sorts of bad behavior like thrill seeking tough man competitions or teen-age fist fights and escapism in consuming illegal drugs or visiting prostitutes and bigotry in ethnic intimidation speech codes or practicing ethnocentrism and greed in insider trading restrictions or avoiding taxes and impatience speed limits regardless of conditions or catching an airplane and indifference in requiring motorists to make way for sirens or not cutting their lawn, etc., etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseam become criminalized. Capiche? read   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

16.  Time was...   by Bennington       at Tue 28 Jan 6:24pm score of 2 obnoxious     I remember when plastic was supposed to play ostrich to suck's dinosaur -- but that was back when people on the site had a sense of humor and a grasp of irony. Now it's just a bunch of over earnest liberals who refuse to laugh at any joke that doesn't make fun of the president. "The plastic virtues: purity, unity, and truth, keep nature in subjection." -- Apollinaire   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

18.  Damn it, I laugh plenty....   by jbou       at Tue 28 Jan 8:38pm score of 1   in reply to comment 16     and not just at the Bush jokes. Now did you hear the one about Clinton, Bush, and..... Arguments have no chance against petrified training; they wear it as little as the waves wear a cliff.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   22.  Re: Time was...   by mischief       at Wed 29 Jan 2:01am score of 1   in reply to comment 16     over earnest liberals who refuse to laugh at any joke that doesn't make fun of the president They also refuse to acknowledge that their lawnmowers get less than 2 miles per gallon, but that's another issue altogether. "And then... and then... and then...", and then the man who stuttered died, his last words an echo of his life   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   30.  Re: Time was...   by Ajax       at Wed 29 Jan 5:58pm score of 1   in reply to comment 16     Could be that there was more to laugh about back then. Although as I recall, conservatives were saying the same thing about Plastic back when I joined (Jan 2001...hey, two years ago today, in fact.) So either there never was a "golden age of Plastic," or our resident conservatives haven't had a new idea in over two years (zing! :) "Coca-ColaŽ and ArmageddonŽ / We like it, like it, yes we do!" -- Clutch.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

17.  Pickin' on the weak since 1988!   by dagnabbitt       at Tue 28 Jan 7:05pm score of 1     I've been reading reason.com for a couple years now SOLEY because Peter Bagge is working for them. I'm a huge fan, and follow whatever he does. And it's great to see other people whose work I admire join him from Suck. I guess that the snarky attitude and in your face reporting on stories which get little fair media representation does translate well to Reason, a sort of ultimate devil's advocate magazine. I'm not sure if every libertarian believes to the extent that the writers do that legalization of prostitution, drugs, etc are good, workable ideas, but it's entertaining to read articles by intelligent people who believe that they WOULD work. Read it. Libertarians aren't as crazy as you've heard, and you'd be surprised by what you'd agree with. I find these truths to be self-evident.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

19.  Naw....   by jbou       at Tue 28 Jan 8:42pm score of 1.5 funny   in reply to comment 17     you all are still as loopy as Shirley McLaine. Arguments have no chance against petrified training; they wear it as little as the waves wear a cliff.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   32.  Re: Naw....   by bitfiend       at Thu 30 Jan 11:13am score of 1   in reply to comment 19     Yeah, individual freedom and self-determination are loopy, unworkable ideas. "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."-George Orwell   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

20.  More to get Sucked into Reason   by suckerpunch       at Tue 28 Jan 10:03pm score of 1     Reason stars occasional pieces from Chris Bray, or to you Sucksters, Ambrose Beers. Ambrose, er, Chris is quite possibly one of the best writers of facts and opt ed to lurk the net or in print... the guy is simply brilliant! But yes, I do miss the cranky Squirrel, the Canadian crack smoking rabbit, and of course Polly. If they could bring THEM back and Terry Colon's cartoons there'd be every reason to tune into Reason every day! PS My handle "suckerpunch" actually comes from Suck as I was often in Fish getting tarred and feathered by Polly, and quite frankly, I enjoyed it! dislectics off tha wrold untie!!!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

21.  Re: More to get Sucked into Reason   by Omen       at Tue 28 Jan 11:35pm score of 1.5 interesting   in reply to comment 20     But yes, I do miss the cranky Squirrel, the Canadian crack smoking rabbit, and of course Polly. If they could bring THEM back and Terry Colon's cartoons there'd be every reason to tune into Reason every day! If they did that, why not just bring back Suck? I poked around Reason Online a bit, and after some reading came to a conclusion that was shared by one of my Suck-consuming associates: not Suck. Oh well. But it seems there are a number of individuals who, like myself, wish the year and a half long "summer vacation" would come to an unexpected end. Suck.com was one of the few websites worth visiting daily, and I have yet to find anything to adequately fill the void left by its demise. And when it comes down to it: I would pay for Suck. Err, uh, yeah. To this day I have not yet paid a dime to any website for any content, Plastic included. (Sorry Carl) But if Suck came back, finally willing to take my filthy money, I would supply it without thinking twice. Oh well. -mpr-   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

24.  don't worry, be happy   by timnet       at Wed 29 Jan 6:58am score of 1     "To write for the Web," Cavanaugh explains, "you have to have a point really quickly, and be willing to say what a lot people may have noticed, but were too polite to say." Amen. If Tim Cavanaugh brings that kind of insight to the job, Reason is certainly headed in the right direction. I thought that Cavanaugh, Ambrose Beers (Chris Bray) and 40th Street Black (Tom Spurgeon) formed a kind of holy trinity of outstanding essayists, and many writers (me included) learned quite a bit from them. I think it was Tim who penned a withering critique of 2000 Libertarian presidential candidate Harry Browne and the party (couldn't find it archived, sorry), so I'm not so sure he's on the L-train. But, in any event, why shouldn't libertarians have their own high-quality mag? With the dominant focus of the media being on the two poles of conservatives and liberals, it's about time someone noticed not all of us gravitate toward those extremes. If Reason.com is 1/10th as good as Suck, it would be better than most things on the Web. Party on, Sucksters! "I feel like I wouldn't like me if I met me." -- Tegan and Sara   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]