Why Can't Women Let Their Hair Down?
	found on Guardian.co.uk written by zaydoun, edited by Ken (Plastic) [ read unedited ] posted Thu 23 Jan 10:11am
		'Whisper it softly, but most [women] have bristling knees, armpits and shins. Some of us have moustaches. You wouldn't know it, though, for we spend great amounts of time perpetuating the myth that we're as smooth as barn eggs. And why? You might hate the bitter truth, but it has everything to do with the fact that men prefer us that way. And if that's the case, surely this is something we should have overcome by now - in the same way that we have ditched eyelash fluttering, corsetry and bustles.' zaydoun shares, "An entertaining yet probing article by a self-confessed 'serial depilator' asks why feminism has managed to win many battles except the one over female body hair. In detailing the torturous methods 'involving the kind of pain once lavished on the village witch' and employed by women to stay smooth, she asks why women should bother going through all this trouble when all men have to worry about is shaving their faces? As a male happily hiding where you can't get me, behind my monitor in relative anonymity, I'll come right out and say that I prefer women with no body hair. If I want body hair, I know several good looking guys with hairy chests. But how did society get here? Apparently men in earlier eras didn't mind female body hair much, nude female portraits notwithstanding. Or was it because they had no choice due to the lack of modern technology?" Goldmund reminds us, "Don't forget the 'Bears' in gay culture and 'hisute honey's' in the straight." [Readers are encouraged to find their own links for edification.] Such preferences are generally considered fetishes, but at what point does a 'fetish' become mainstream? Is a preference for (relatively) hair-free women (or men, for that matter) simply a popular fetish?

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1.  Ok, So She Doesn't Know The Full Male Experience   by Linux Ate My Dog!       at Thu 23 Jan 10:22am score of 3 helpful     why women should bother going through all this trouble when all men have to worry about is shaving their faces? Every ad I have ever seen for laser-depilation includes a picture of a smooth buff male back. Infomercials and high-channel-cable ads for depilatories always include men's backs, legs, and chest. Men don't? Ha! Many gay men I know do,their whole bodies, and plenty of straight men either attack their backs or are totally insecure about their hirsutism. "He's old school." -- byrne   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

33.  Re: Ok, So She Doesn't Know The Full Male   by TheMCP       at Thu 23 Jan 12:01pm score of 3 informative   in reply to comment 1     Aah, but men aren't supposed to care about these things. So, when I was in college a straight friend of mine, who was a great looking guy who I would gladly have had as a boyfriend had he been gay, admitted to me sheepishly one day that he wouldn't go swimming with me because that would mean he would have to take off his shirt and show the world how much hair he has. I could tell he had a nice carpet of chest hair and I thought it was attractive, but he went on to admit, with some apparent shame, that he had his back waxed weekly in case he might find a girlfriend and get laid. He didn't do the front too because it was painful enough on his back. He went through weekly pain to have a part of the body the public doesn't even see depilated on the off chance that he might find someone to date and end up having sex. (Strangely, it took years before that happened.) Worse, he walked around in constant shame about the waxing. Beats the hell out of me why. I also can't imagine why he walked around in constant shame about his really very nice chest hair. I have hair almost everywhere and it doesn't bother me, but I do have to admit that I occasionally shave my shoulders. It just looks wrong to me there. I have no idea why. And of course there's the reverse image problem men have, this expectation that we must do something, ANYTHING, to prevent hair loss. Male pattern baldness is natural and normal. One of my straight friends had once, when I first met him, gotten me confused about what his orientation might be, and in the course of asking I admitted to him that I found him very attractive. He was shocked - not that I said it, but that someone would think he's unusually attractive. He has a receding hairline, you see, and assumed that that meant he's ugly to everyone. Personally I found his hair to be really very well done and attractive. I later learned his girlfriend didn't like it and was pestering him to see a doctor about it. But he went on at length about the things he might do about it, possible surgery... and in a hush he whispered to me about a mutual friend who had told him his great secret: he uses "hair club for men". That's a secret? My friend eventually said something contrasting his receding hairline with my full head of hair. I pointed out that my maternal grandfather went bald and I am by no means certain not to do so. I went on to explain that I've already decided that if I do go bald I will go get a wig and then take it around to show all my friends and ask "What do you think of my new wig?" He was deeply shocked. It took him a minute to collect himself to ask why on earth I would do that. I pointed out that if I didn't show it to my friends and ask them what they thought, I wouldn't know if it looked good or if everyone was looking at me and thinking "what a godawful wig". He had never thought of that. I also pointed out that if I showed up one day half bald and the next with full hair everyone would damn well know I had bought a wig, so why hide it? He had never thought of that either. I think I gave the poor guy more to be nervous about, now he's afraid to do anything for fear someone will notice he did something. Those are just to pick from examples from my current straight male friends in their late 20's. If I add in gay men and other age ranges it becomes a continuous moan of "Oh my god! I have too much hair here and not enough hair there! I don't know what to do about it but my god I'd better not admit to anyone if I do anything!" End of line.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   113.  As a man with a hairy booty (well, peachy hairy)..   by viscount9       at Thu 23 Jan 5:30pm score of 1   in reply to comment 33     Aah, but men aren't supposed to care about these things Exactly true. But, what I am wondering is, are our values changing on this? Speaking as a hairy straight guy, I have been feeling incredible self-conscious about my hairy problem - pun maybe intended. What I am wondering is that, I dont think that during my father's time, there was any pressure to be hairless without shaving. I cant shave it cause, as the stereotype says, only gay guys shave, or if he's straight, he's very shallow. I dont think my dad went through that problem. And, 70s porn are filled with hairy guys, so does anyone see our values changing? Will women and men's attitude towards their own body hair soon become the same? That is, its bad and shave it. Kittens are made of meat. I like meat. Ergo, I like kittens.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   152.  Andre Agassi?   by random1       at Fri 24 Jan 8:27am score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 33     Agassi caused a sensation when he had initially shaved his chest, as evidences when he changed his shirt during a match. At first, it seemed the hair was shorter/thinner, where as now, he is completely hairless. The hairy male used to be a sign of virility(testosterone, or whatever), whereas now, you NEVER see a hairy male model, they are always completely hairless. A couple of women at work were discussing male hair, and they were very adamant about the unattractiveness of male body hair(they were both around 25, this was two or three years ago). I almost felt sexually harassed, as an obviously hairy male.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

2.  Here's to you, Paula Cole   by CelebratedMrK       at Thu 23 Jan 10:28am score of 1     Anyone remember Paula Cole's performance on VH1 a few years ago? It was a disgusting-but-magnetic sight. I couldn't take my eyes off her lush, black armpits, even as I felt my stomach churning. The woman just didn't seem to care! It was one of those odd TV moments that actually make you think about your conditioning. Let's face it, from the day that we come into this world screaming and kicking, we are told (or taught) what is beautiful and what is not. The Hairless Female is one of those stupid-but-impossible-to-alter concepts. The aging grandmother with a hairy upper lip remains a rich source for her grandchildren's budding sense of humor. The girl in high school with hairy arms or legs shall always be an untouchable.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

14.  Re: Here's to you, Paula Cole   by Dave2       at Thu 23 Jan 11:01am score of 3 witty   in reply to comment 2     Anyone remember Paula Cole's performance on VH1 a few years ago? Yes, and it provided an instant answer to her "Where have all the cowboys gone?" question -- they have all gone to find women who bother to shave their disgusting, hairy armpits.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   102.  Need an argument for hairlessness?   by M. Mosher       at Thu 23 Jan 4:43pm score of 1   in reply to comment 2     One word. Yamila   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   120.  That VH1 appearance just about coincides...   by Brian Jones       at Thu 23 Jan 6:00pm score of 1   in reply to comment 2     ...with the beginning of her utter disappearance from the airwaves. Paula Cole is off to one-hit-wondersville. Cheap crass attention-whoring plug goes here.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   124.  Re: That VH1 appearance just about coincides...   by zaydoun       at Thu 23 Jan 6:36pm score of 1   in reply to comment 120     Yet somehow that other semi-hit she had "I don't wanna wait", is the theme from Dawson's Creek, and thus played every week on WB. Ziad http://kuwait-unplugged.com   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   175.  Re: That VH1 appearance just about coincides...   by TamLin       at Fri 24 Jan 4:46pm score of 1   in reply to comment 120     Personally, I'd attribute it to her horrible, horrible third album. "Oh, who am I kidding? The ramparts suck. They were sucky, sucky ramparts." - Stephen Colbert, The Daily Show   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   127.  TV theme songs don't count   by Brian Jones       at Thu 23 Jan 7:57pm score of 2 helpful   in reply to comment 124     That's the musical rule known as the Rembrandts Corollary. Cheap crass attention-whoring plug goes here.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

3.  Men prefer children?   by MonkeyBoy       at Thu 23 Jan 10:31am score of 1.5 compelling     There seems to be a trend toward defining feminine beauty as "child like." We have fashion models with boyish figures and many movie stars with large heads and large facial features (another feature of children.)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

13.  Re: Men prefer children?   by logbass       at Thu 23 Jan 10:55am score of 3.5 interesting   in reply to comment 3     Large heads and large facial features (and long necks) photograph well. I don't buy the men want children line though. How many children have large breasts? Also, most of the time I look at a fashion figure that people call boyish, like Eva Herzigova here on Plastic recently, she has a round ass and nice breasts. Kate Moss and her cohorts are relatively rare. The movie Pret a Porter had a fascinating scene where a parade of runway models walked by nude. What was interesting to me was they all had virtually the same body. Tall, long legs and neck, small but curvey butt and medium well formed breasts. I confused none of them for boys or children. Part of the reason people look sexually at some "children" is the ridiculous redefinition of 16 and 17 year olds as children. A 17 year old woman is a perfectly legitimate object of desire (although the reality would probably leave something to be desired). Being hot for Brittany Spears on the Mickey Mouse club is bad. Being hot for her in that first video is not. (Talent aside). As a side note I have a running inner debate on which film it became OK to be sexually attracted to Kirsten Dunst. Any opinions? No its not Jumanji, sicko. Who's got the kibble? - Bad Lieutenant: POCNO   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   30.  Re: Men prefer children?   by nmiguy       at Thu 23 Jan 11:54am score of 1 obnoxious   in reply to comment 13     I'd prefer a hirsute Penelope Cruz in Corelli's Mandolin than any version of that disgusting twig Kate Moss. When did anorexic models with bad attitude and malnutrition become sexy? Drew barrymore is hotter than Kate Moss or even Klum or Twiggy. Who intheir right mind finds a skeleton sexy. I'm not saying I'm into hairy women, but I'm saying that if a woman looks like she has a beaver in a headlock, it doesn't exactly churn my stomach.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   141.  Re: Men prefer children?   by SofaLover       at Fri 24 Jan 12:22am score of 1   in reply to comment 13     As a side note I have a running inner debate on which film it became OK to be sexually attracted to Kirsten Dunst. Any opinions? Defintately the Virgin suicides and after IMHO. On a side note I have recoiled in shock after moving in for a snog with at least two women who on closer inspection had stubble worthy of a greek fisherman. Permanent crisis justifies permanent control of everybody and everything by the agencies of government control.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   59.  Re: Men prefer children?   by Anywhere       at Thu 23 Jan 1:27pm score of 1.5 informative   in reply to comment 30     When did anorexic models with bad attitude and malnutrition become sexy? Never. At least, that's according to every heterosexual male with whom I have ever discussed the subject. Are there any heterosexual men on Plastic who ever found Kate Moss attractive? Gateway computers are pieces of shit, and their customer service is abysmal. Ask me why if you want to hear me vent.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   130.  Re: Men prefer children?   by swalve       at Thu 23 Jan 9:09pm score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 59     Yes. Certainly not the sexiest girl I've ever seen, but certainly do-able. "If silence is golden, you couldn't raise a dime!"   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   149.  Re: Men prefer children?   by halfwit       at Fri 24 Jan 7:37am score of 1   in reply to comment 59     An old roommate of mine found Kate Moss and Ally McBeal extremely sexy. As far as I know, that's the only straight guy I've met who thought so. So yes, hetero men who are into skeletal chicks are not a complete myth.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   150.  Re: Men prefer children?   by Anonymous Idiot       at Fri 24 Jan 7:58am score of 0.5 funny   in reply to comment 149     An old roommate of mine found Kate Moss and Ally McBeal extremely sexy. Just curious, but did this roomate keep a copy of Schindler's List in their porn collection?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   162.  Kate Moss: is she good-looking?   by landonair       at Fri 24 Jan 11:58am score of 2 interesting   in reply to comment 149     The idea that Kate Moss is anorexic is one of the greatest mass delusions of the century. Like most models she started when she was about 14, and like many girls that age she was just skin and bones. Then this paranoid conspiracy erupted from both the left and right that Kate Moss was a tool being used by the fashion industry in order to promote anorexia. This then brought a knee-jerk reaction from men whenever the name 'Kate Moss' came up 'Eeeww, gross, she's so skinny!' when they don't even know what she looks like. Admitting that she was sexy would be akin to promoting anorexia or hinting that you were a closet homo. What I found interesting is that at the same time Kate Moss was becoming a household name, Shirley Manson from Garbage was too. She's just as thin as Kate Moss, but the media never forcefed the linkage between her and anorexia, so it was pc to admit she was hot, as many guys did. As she grew older she fleshed out more to look like a normal ectomorph, the same body type that people see walking by them a hundred times a day, but her reputation as a skinny, anorexic freak stuck. I'm not tyring to convince people to feel sympathetic for someone who's become one of Britian's richest women from just standing around and looking pretty, but equating ectomorphic with 'disgusting anorexic junkies' is about as fair as calling fat people 'stupid, lazy idiots who can't stop stuffing Big Macs down their throat'. As already posted, she isn't the sexiest woman I've seen. It's hard to deny that she has a cute face, but my problem with her is simply that SHE HAS NO BREASTS. But I find it very hard to believe that if the average guy saw her walking down the street they would recoil in horror and go 'EEWW!!' Here's a picture. As if you wouldn't want to do her. "It's so easy to say things that are so idealistic without reasoning and thinking them out in the big picture"   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   170.  skinny chicks...who loves 'em?   by replica       at Fri 24 Jan 1:37pm score of 1   in reply to comment 149     Just a quick note - In my opinion, it is women who perpetrate the beauty myth of 'thin is in' (with a small segment of the 'aesthetically particular' male population in agreement). Why? Because women are a fearsomely competitive group - and it is a lot harder to tweak and maintain a skeletal frame (and stay conscious at the same time) than it is to allow nature to take its course. If women allowed themselves to display the 'curvy, healthy figure' that men seem to want, well then there'd be a whole bunch more competition out there for the ever elusive 'sane, straight, single man' (which is also a stupid myth we perpetuate). I promise you, men, that women only attempt to gain your attention once they have decimated the local competition. The bitterest of 'if looks could kill' battles occur across the room between females while you are still staring at our chests! I say this as a naturally-mighty-thin woman whose 50 pound pregnancy weight gain has brought me vast amounts of compliments from men, but an almost hysterical amount of advice on 'getting thin again' commentary from women.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   174.  Re: Kate Moss: is she good-looking?   by halfwit       at Fri 24 Jan 3:58pm score of 1   in reply to comment 162     Okay, I exaggerated. However (!), the fellow to whom I referred said often, "I really like to see the outline of their ribs through their skin." (That's not a lie or exaggeration. He said it often.) So he, at least, preferred the freakishly thin girls. Just compare Sarah Michelle Gellar this season to how she looked in the first season of Buffy. Do the same for David Arquette's wife (what's her name again) from Friends. In the first season, I would have said both women were gorgeous. Now I think they're both too thin. Look at Cameron Diaz in "The Mask" (hubba hubba!) to how she looked in "Charlie's Angels" (no thank you - and I'm not just referring to a change in hair styles). I'm not saying women should be Roseann Barr sized, but I much preferred to see a size 6, 8, or 10 woman than someone who's size 4,2, or 0. A little muscle never hurts, either.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   76.  Re: Men prefer children?   by coquito       at Thu 23 Jan 2:16pm score of 1   in reply to comment 3     i feel compelled to address this. all my life i've been most attracted to "petite" women, meaning short girls with usually proportioned features. i guess a couple of them had prominent eyes, but i wouldn't call them "big." that said, i've always been turned off by girls who don't have curves, and while i'm not a DD man, i do like a girl who's chest isn't flat. i supposed some could accuse me of being attracted to women who look like girls (in some ways), but i personally think that's absurd. i don't find little girls attractive, and they all lack certain womanly features i like. some men like tall women with big boobs, but that doesn't mean they have mommy fetishes (as a child, your mother would always be tall and her breasts would most likely seem rather large to you as well...) all that said, i think others have made a good point here -- men are also considered more attractive when they have prominent eyes, maybe a largish head, etc... some people consider these features "childlike," others don't. i don't think it has anything to do with pedophilia. it may even be the reverse -- what i mean is, there are theories that babies and children look a certain way so we will find them attractive and be compelled to take care of them. it might not be we like certain features on people because they look like kids, it might be we like kids because they tend to have certain features we all find attractive... In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods -- learned Hindu scholar   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   93.  Re: Men prefer children?   by lawnwrangler       at Thu 23 Jan 3:48pm score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 76     Yes, yes. What your referring to is called neoteny (I'm probably spelling it wrong). There are certain features that infants have--large eyes, small nose, large head. All mammalian species have an intrinsic nurturing response when we see those features. It makes sense; it's built-in for us to want to take care of the youth. AND, it even carries over from one species to the next. This is why we find puppie dogs and deer cute (big eyes, small nose) AND when the human baby falls into the gorilla cage, the mama gorilla takes care of the baby [this has happened]. When we see adults (especially women) with some of these features, it triggers the "awww" response. Combine that with boobs and curves and you get the "awww" mixed with the "heh, heh, heh." PS. Ever think about what Natilie Imbruglia looks like. Her face is the face of a child (huge eyes, small nose). And, yup, she is beautiful.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   129.  Re: Men prefer children?   by dcunning       at Thu 23 Jan 9:07pm score of 2.5 informative   in reply to comment 3     I'll have to dig up some sources on this (having trouble finding any... all I get are references to porn and gay-issues related sociological studies) but I remember once watching a program on Discovery or Animal Planet that discussed some related issues. One of them was the fact that male and female children look and sound so similar until puberty, when all (well, okay, not all) the differences begin. Divergence of body form, etc. They went off on a tangent about how females retain certain childlike charateristics (relatively less hair, even naturally, higher voices; a female shock/fear response is a scream instead of a male yell/roar, etc.) and that this has the important biological role of giving an element of protection to females because these features trigger, or at least tickle, paternal instincts in males. Think about it: If you're somewhere and you here a scream, you at least pay attention (and hopefully investigate/help) but if you hear a yell/roar it's more often, "Ahh, whatever. Just a fight." Unless you like watching fights... It's a fairly simple step, in my mind at least, to think that there could be a biological reinforcement: females that are more childlike are more 'endearing' and possibly safer; therefore they should have more reproductive success; females with higher reproductive success should be more attractive (especially given the existing 'endearing' quality of childlike features.) Given a few 100,000 years of this kind of feedback, childlike/feminine converge to some extent and are also deemed more attractive. So women removing their body hair plays on this existing proclivity in males. Males 'seek' those females and now we've added a social feedback to the biological one. Why hairless males are more attractive, I dunno. There has been at least one study that claimed that female preference for male body form is variable and tied to menstruation. Boyish (or feminine... take your pick) men are statistically more attractive to females just before menstruation; more 'manly' males are statistically more attractive outside of the time immediately before menstruation. I don't know how that plays out... male models are buff but tend to have feminine features (hairless, smoother faces, etc.) Maybe the best of both worlds... a compromise so to speak. Do I win a prize now? Oooh... a few sources, finally: a www.serpentfd.org link a faculty.mville.edu link Don't tell me how to live my life... my mom reserves that right.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   145.  Re: Men prefer children?   by kohnJarma       at Fri 24 Jan 6:50am score of 1   in reply to comment 3     I remember reading about this before. Apparently it's tied to economic factors. When times are good and money is a-plenty, men find women with "child-like" features attractive. When the economy is doing badly, men go for women with "stronger" features. The logic is self-evident. I don't know how one would go about backing it up, but it's an interesting theory.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   186.  Re: Men prefer children?   by quacksalve       at Sat 25 Jan 9:14am score of 1   in reply to comment 145     Finally, a reason for me to be psyched about the recession -- thanks!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

4.  so fresh, so clean   by warble       at Thu 23 Jan 10:31am score of 1.5 compelling     I first start shaving because my mother told me it was expected of me, the same way washing my hair and brushing my teeth was. Now, I shave for my own reasons - I feel cleaner after shaving. My legs don't itch or feel stubby. My armpits don't feel as disgusting when I'm sweating, with the hair to trap the sweat. I can wear a swimsuit without wondering if my pubic hair is peeking out of the seams. So, in the end, I like feeling and looking clean and I like to take care of myself, and shaving is, to me, part of that. Personally, I think more men would like the sensation if they gave it the chance -- if it wasn't seen as so girly to shave your legs (except perhaps if you're on the swim team). Why isn't there an article bemoaning the fact that more men don't feel comfortable enough to have the option of going bare?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

27.  Re: so fresh, so clean   by halfwit       at Thu 23 Jan 11:51am score of 1   in reply to comment 4     My problem with shaving most of my body hair, as a guy, isn't the social stigma involved. There was an article a few years ago in some fitness magazine (Muscle Media?) where someone wrote in to ask one of the bodybuilders how he shaved. The guy replied that it took him about 45 minutes to get everything, and he did it every day. If you add those 45 minutes on top of showering, shaving, cleaning your teeth, trimming your nose hair, and applying deodorant and/or cologne, that's almost 10% of your waking moments just spent on personal grooming. That's an awful lot of effort just to meet the minimum requirements for social interaction. If a woman does or doesn't want to shave, that's her business and for me personally, it doesn't affect how attractive she is. But I think your negative feeling of being dirty and 'stubbly' is a mix of conditioning and being unused to the hair. Once body hair passes a certain length, it doesn't feel stubble or itchy. And if you shower daily anyway, it isn't going to get that dirty.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

5.  Fashion   by goofyroo       at Thu 23 Jan 10:32am score of 2 astute     Well, jeez, millions of men also rise every morning to the scrape of titanium or the buzz of rotating teeth. Would most of us rather not? Of course. But women have their expectations. Furthermore, poll American women and you'll find that a slim majority would go so far as to circumcise their son's penis because "it looks better." (Interestingly, experienced and worldly women would not.) Body modification -- whether clipping dead tissue or live -- is a fashion, not a feminist, issue for both genders. For the record, I encourage my swimwear-model-pretty wife to let her underarms go fallow, as I think she looks more natural that way. Alas, social pressure brings the razor out with the tank tops every spring. Goofy Roo Calling someone judgmental makes you judgmental.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

9.  Re: Fashion   by ideonode       at Thu 23 Jan 10:41am score of 1   in reply to comment 5     Good post. Not sure that fashion was always the reason for body hair removal. I read somewhere that it Alexander the Great introduced shaving as it meant enemy soldiers wouldn't have a handy beard to hold onto during combat. The link also mentions how the penchant for no body hair goes back millennia.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   51.  Re: Fashion   by Quantumpanda       at Thu 23 Jan 1:11pm score of 1   in reply to comment 5     Body modification -- whether clipping dead tissue or live -- is a fashion, not a feminist, issue for both genders. For an interesting take on this issue, you might want to read "Cut", one of the short stories nominated for this year's Nebula award. Warning: this story does contain frank and open language and possibly disturbing imagery. Read at your own risk, and don't blame me if you're offended by it. People are stupid. Since we usually can't kill them, we have to settle for the next best thing: we laugh at them.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   112.  Re: cutting off bits for fashion   by spiderfarmer       at Thu 23 Jan 5:28pm score of 1.5 interesting   in reply to comment 5     My son was born a few weeks ago...and you wouldn't believe the pressure that was put on us to have him circumsized. (Which we didn't do. I saw no reason to surgically alter a newborn.) But, my husband's mother especially, as well as some others kept insisting that we take a knife to this baby, because "penises don't look right otherwise." Since I'd spent my formative sexual years in Europe, I begged to disagree and told them that it was my son and the first person to come near him with a surgical implement was going to be a very unhappy person indeed. (Of course, these are the same people that think breastfeeding is shameful...honestly, repressed people astound me.) "Oh Bother," said Pooh as he stared into the unspeakable visage of Cthulhu.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   132.  Re: cutting off bits for fashion   by Advil       at Thu 23 Jan 9:15pm score of 1   in reply to comment 112     Good for you, Spiderf.! Male circumcision should be outlawed anyway. In Europe, no one would dare taking the knife to defenseless infant boys. What's wrong with the US? When will Americans get it? I mean, seriously. And as far as the topic of shaving is concerned, Americans are SOOO afraid of anyone thinking they're unclean, we're collectively using more water than anyone on the planet. Jebus forbid anyone should SUSPECT us for being able to SWEAT! No wonder AMericans are the number 1 factually ignorant Westerners, we spend all our time shaving/showering and primping! Instead of trying to learn interesting factoids such as, oh, like where on the planet Iraq is.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   157.  Re: cutting off bits for fashion   by Judd       at Fri 24 Jan 10:12am score of 1   in reply to comment 132     I agree. I mean, look at how many posts are here compared to the other topics today...   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   183.  Re: cutting off bits for fashion   by Sporko       at Fri 24 Jan 10:29pm score of 1   in reply to comment 132     Americans are SOOO afraid of anyone thinking they're unclean, we're collectively using more water than anyone on the planet. I think that has less to do with hygiene and much more to do with peoples insistence on growing full green lawns in a areas that are naturally deserts...   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

6.  It comes down to bare skin   by LeighBCD       at Thu 23 Jan 10:34am score of 1     I think the question, rather, is how did Anglo Saxon society get to the point where female body hair is seen as unattractive? One reason may be to do with fashion. It was not until the early 20th century that women's clothing started to show more bare skin. As skirt lengths rose and women began to wear sleeveless tops and dresses and skimpier swim-wear, advances in technology meant that women could finally remove the hair that until then had been hidden away from public gaze. I suspect people felt that it was less feminine to have hairy arms and legs on constant display and consequently, the practice evolved of women removing their body hair. But this is very much an Anglo-Saxon thing. Female body hair, and whether or not society dictates it should be removed, is dependent on culture. For example, many French women do not shave under their arms at all. When I was 21, I worked as an au pair in France and I remember being totally stunned the first time I took the kids to the public swimming pool and saw all the hairy female armpits on display. For me, it was quite enlightening to see all these beautiful, happy women quite content not to shave under their arms and all their men perfectly happy with this. After a few months, I began to feel like I was the freak because I was the only woman who did shave under her arms. I was not sufficiently persuaded to go a la francaise but it was an important lesson for me that perceptions of what makes a person physically beautiful are oftentimes attributable to cultural influences. To rose-lipt maidens and lightfoot lads   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

17.  Re: It comes down to bare skin   by Kurtz       at Thu 23 Jan 11:11am score of 1.5 informative   in reply to comment 6     You're pretty much right on as it seems the current trend of women shaving began as a fashion statement around 1915. --What Would Azathoth Do?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   179.  Re: It comes down to bare skin   by evie       at Fri 24 Jan 7:57pm score of 1.5 interesting   in reply to comment 6     I think the question, rather, is how did Anglo Saxon society get to the point where female body hair is seen as unattractive? I think it built up from the fact that originally female body hair was so erotic. All those old nudes don't show pubic hair, not because the masters had a thing for the shaved look, but rather because it was too pornographic to show hair (you can see this in Japan, where magazines showing shaved vaginas are readily available in convenience stores but hairy vaginas suffer a higher classification). Then, you have to factor in the changes in society. With the industrial revolution there stopped being need for the differences between men and women's lives (even in the more arduous work such as mining - they even sent children down there). Once the physical differences stopped being so necessary (in fact some could say they are a hindrence), we started to eroticise physical differences to a greater extent. Where once pubic hair was synonymous with sexual attraction, all body hair got linked to male characteristics. (Its very important to exagerate the differences when reality has proved they aren't particularly significant). Your comment scores 100 on the Flesch scale of reading ease, making it comparable to selections from Dr. Seuss.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

7.  This is easy...   by tbo       at Thu 23 Jan 10:37am score of 2 astute     Men prefer women without body hair because excessive body hair is a male sexual characteristic. Think Rob Schneider. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some link between female body hair and hormone levels, in the same way that there's a relation between body proportions in women (particularly hip-to-waist ratio) and estrogen levels. There might even be a genuine biological reason why men are attracted to women with less body hair. That said, if the women out there are having a hard time figuring out why female body hair is unattractive, imagine your favourite hunk with breasts. Droopy man-breasts. Not too nice, is it? The article also points out that most women who don't shave identify themselves as "very strong feminists and/or as not exclusively heterosexual," i.e., perhaps not a good choice for the average guy. This means there's a lot of inertia against change here. (Not that there's anything wrong with feminism in general, but those women who consider themselves "very strong feminists" are usually what Christina Sommers would call "gender feminists", and have some serious issues with men. In short, expect castration if you leave the toilet seat up.)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

28.  Hormones   by goofyroo       at Thu 23 Jan 11:52am score of 1   in reply to comment 7     As I understand it, testosterone (which is present in male and female) boosts body-hair growth in the "male" places and peps the sex drive -- both effects regardless of gender. Which was cause for some speculation among my college buddies as to whether the trace of a moustache on a girl was a good indicator of her willingness to "go" with little provocation. Anecdotal evidence among us affirmed this. Goofy Roo Calling someone judgmental makes you judgmental.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   38.  Excessive is one thing....   by VootGuy       at Thu 23 Jan 12:30pm score of 1   in reply to comment 7     Body hair, though, is a universal sexual characteristic. You get it at puberty. Men do not grow breasts at puberty. Well, most don't at least.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   46.  Re: This is easy...   by TheMCP       at Thu 23 Jan 12:58pm score of 1   in reply to comment 7     There might even be a genuine biological reason why men are attracted to women with less body hair. Or there might not. Prior to the current lengthy fad for hairless women, men used to write love poetry talking lustfully about the beautiful silky hair on women's legs. Care to explain why it used to be a feature and now suddenly there's some "biological reason why men are attracted to women with less body hair"? End of line.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   54.  Re: This is easy...   by elforman       at Thu 23 Jan 1:18pm score of 2 astute   in reply to comment 46     Care to explain why it used to be a feature and now suddenly there's some "biological reason why men are attracted to women with less body hair"? I'll take a whack at it. How about because back then it was either extraordinarily difficult for women to shave their body hair? Or simply because nobody had thought of it? How do you know that if back when these poets were busy churning out their odes to body hair, that if they suddenly saw a woman with smooth legs and armpits and a neatly trimmed pubic area, that they wouldn't have changed their minds? If breast implants were around in the late 1500s, perhaps Shakespeare would have written about Juliet's silicone-enhanced beauty. I think in most cases you don't know if you're attracted to something until you see it for the first time, and certainly not if you don't know it exists.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   78.  Re: This is easy...   by Bigwood       at Thu 23 Jan 2:21pm score of 1   in reply to comment 46     Privledged men and women throughout the ages have tried to accentuate the characteristics associated with their sex while de-accentuating those characteristics more commonly associated with the other sex. Women tend to be paler, less hairy, and smaller. To accentuate these traits, women: 1. wear makeup that lightens their skin (paler) 2. shave/wax/etc. (less hairy) 3. tend not to do any heavy lifting (smaller) Men tend to do the opposite, except in cases where another societal trend imposes. (In the past, male and female aristocrats tried to remain pale to show that they didn't have to work outside for a living. These days spending time outside is healthy, so people want the perfect tan.) The only difference is that now we have more wealth. Now everybody can pursue these activities rather than just the select few.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

8.  Newsflash for the author of that article:   by ksu93       at Thu 23 Jan 10:38am score of 1.5 nuanced     You know all those photos you see in ads and magazines of buff men bristling with muscles and perfectly toned bodies? Those male models had to shave a hell of a lot more than just their armpits and legs! Go hang out in a gym sometime. You think all those body-builders are genetically hairless? Well think again. But shaving is by no means limited to the body-building crowd. Men are expected to shave their faces and necks on a daily basis. Why? Because that's what our society expects of us. In turn, we expect women to shave their legs and armpits. It's just the way it is, so deal with it. Even better, spend some time grooming your pubic hair. You may think I sound like a pig making that last suggestion, but you have absolutely no idea how much better a naked woman looks when she takes care of business downstairs, so to speak. That doesn't mean everyone has to run out and get a Brazilian bikini wax (though by all means do not let me stop you), but well-groomed pubic hair can make all the difference in a woman's appearance (when she's naked anyway - or when she's wearing a swimsuit). In summary, I say the premise of this article is completely backwards. We don't need women to remove less hair. If anything, more hair removal is warranted. "War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." -Ambrose Bierce   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

20.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by CaptainLiberal       at Thu 23 Jan 11:16am score of 1.5 compelling   in reply to comment 8     Some men aren't turned off by the actual female body. Women grow hair, just like men. Just like men, it's okay that some choose to shave and some don't. I know plenty of guys who don't get up every morning and shave their face and neck, who aren't considered disgusting. We call it a beard. Keep in mind that not every guy wants to fuck something that looks like a twelve-year old vagina. Nothing wrong with a little hair, my friend, it's all natural. Every dream turns into something on a T-shirt -- Shriekback   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   43.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by tbo       at Thu 23 Jan 12:53pm score of 1   in reply to comment 20     Just like men, it's okay that some choose to shave and some don't. I know plenty of guys who don't get up every morning and shave their face and neck, who aren't considered disgusting. We call it a beard. That's a common myth among women--that men who have beards save time shaving. Aside from the rare guy with a completely overgrown face (the caveman look), maintaining a beard takes as much or more time than being clean-shaven. If you have a goatee or other partial beard, you have to be very careful to keep the edges even, you have to shave the rest of your face, and you have to trim it regularly. Keep in mind that not every guy wants to fuck something that looks like a twelve-year old vagina. I think most men prefer a modest amount of hair down there, even if it does make it harder to go down. This discussion is more about legs and pits...   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   44.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by Citizen Erectus       at Thu 23 Jan 12:53pm score of 1   in reply to comment 20     Keep in mind that not every guy wants to fuck something that looks like a twelve-year old vagina. Nothing wrong with a little hair, my friend, it's all natural. This pubic shaving trend has become alarming. It's one thing to keep body hair in check, as a man I try to tidy up my hair with scissors on occasion, it's part of personal grooming. But a clean shaven pubic region, which may be good for porn and operations, is not conducive to friction free sex. A clean shaven area is not silky smooth, it's slightly "squeaky" as in there is friction when other bare skin touches it. Pubic hair alleviates this, that's probably why it has evolved to be so. Come on ladies, bush! By killing people.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   47.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by MAYORBOB       at Thu 23 Jan 1:06pm score of 1   in reply to comment 20     "I know plenty of guys who don't get up every morning and shave their face and neck, who aren't considered disgusting. We call it a beard. Unless you're willing to settle for the Grizzly Adams look, you may expect to add a good ten to twenty minutes each morning on the grooming of said beard. And then you count the extra time during the day to make sure food particles don't end up lodged in the beard. Tending to final details.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   48.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by CaptainLiberal       at Thu 23 Jan 1:07pm score of 1   in reply to comment 43     That's a common myth among women--that men who have beards save time shaving. Funny, I have a penis between my legs and I think it takes less time to trim my beard and mustache than it does to shave. In part, because I'm shaving considerably less volume, but primarily because I don't have to shave my upper or lower lip, two of the trickest places to shave without cutting yourself. For that matter, not trimming your beard for a day or two doesn't result in you looking shaggy, but not shaving at all for a day or two does if you grow much facial hair at all. This discussion is more about legs and pits... I was mostly responding to ksu93 who was calling for an all out war against body hair. Every dream turns into something on a T-shirt -- Shriekback   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   61.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by halfwit       at Thu 23 Jan 1:39pm score of 1   in reply to comment 48     Depends upon the person's genetics and habits, I guess. I can shave my face extremely fast... maybe 90 seconds to be completely smooth shaven (no shaving cream, just a razor and some water). You bleed a lot the first few times you do it, but after a while your skin adapts and I almost never cut myself, even with a new razor. I know lots of guys who bleed like crazy and many that have to be very careful around different sections. I'm not one of them. Trimming a beard would definitely take me a lot longer. Just to clarify, I am not advocating the removal of all body hair. I learned to shave as quickly as possible because I'm too impatient to spend more than the minimal time necessary in personal grooming. I'd hate to have to shave everything, since I'm a hairy galute myself.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   64.  fellate?   by andy p       at Thu 23 Jan 1:41pm score of 1   in reply to comment 44     Bush is alright I guess, until you get a couple strands in the back of your throat and cough up a furball. That really kills the mood. Friction on the other hand can be solved with a quick squirt of astroglide, there's no such easy solution to hairballs (no pun intended). Barrels are just crates with delusions of grandeur   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   79.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by coquito       at Thu 23 Jan 2:24pm score of 1   in reply to comment 48     it definitely takes me more time to trim my facial hair than it used to take me to shave it all off. it all depends on what look you're creating with your facial hair (do you have a mustache? a goatee? a full beard? chops? sideburns? do the sideburns connect to the mustache? to the goatee? etc.. etc... etc...) and as a sidenote to this whole discussion, my girlfriend makes a bigger deal out of me shaving (at least my cheeks and neck) than i do about shaving her legs. but, in all fairness, i'm more likely to let it go than she is. but it just goes to show the myth of no pressure on guys 9and just girls) is just that -- a myth. In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods -- learned Hindu scholar   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   128.  Re: fellate?   by WhoAreWe       at Thu 23 Jan 8:03pm score of 1   in reply to comment 64     Okay, I thought female-on-top oral sex was called "cunnilingus". Of course, I'm not making any assumptions about sexual orientation here, but aren't we talking about the female bush? Colorblind? Why would I ever want to be willfully blind?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   138.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by tbo       at Thu 23 Jan 11:37pm score of 1   in reply to comment 48     Funny, I have a penis between my legs and I think it takes less time to trim my beard and mustache than it does to shave. Sorry, classic gender assumption in reverse. My beard (a chin-only goatee variant) takes more time to maintain than shaving completely. My fiancee makes me keep it :-) Getting a little off-topic, how do certain male stars always maintain the "I shaved 5 days ago" look? At least once a week, shouldn't it be "I shaved yesterday or today"? Are there special trimmers that do that?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   146.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by kohnJarma       at Fri 24 Jan 7:06am score of 1   in reply to comment 44     Yes, bodily hair has a vital role in regulating friction in various nooks and crannies, as the author of this puerile (though hilarious) piece discovered.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   156.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by Killjoy       at Fri 24 Jan 10:09am score of 1   in reply to comment 138     "Getting a little off-topic, how do certain male stars always maintain the "I shaved 5 days ago" look? At least once a week, shouldn't it be "I shaved yesterday or today"? Are there special trimmers that do that?" Yes, actually, there are, and that is how they do it. They also come in handy maintaining a beard/goatee/whatever, as long as you don't mind it very short. You learn something new... Step 2. Smite enemies with burning pigs.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   166.  Adjustable trimmers   by Ajax       at Fri 24 Jan 12:29pm score of 1   in reply to comment 138     ...how do certain male stars always maintain the "I shaved 5 days ago" look? At least once a week, shouldn't it be "I shaved yesterday or today"? Are there special trimmers that do that? Indeed there are. Those of us who prefer electric razors (yes, I know: "pussies") and also maintain a beard generally invest in a beard and moustache trimmer with an adjustable setting. An invaluable tool for keeping your beard just long enough to cover all the bald spots and no longer. ;) As someone who's gone both bearded and beardless, my opinion is that trimming a beard and shaving one's whole face take about the same amount of time in aggregate, but depending on how much of a beard you wear (and how fast it grows) you can often save time on an individual day by skipping the trim and just shaving the parts you like to keep naked. I usually only trim my beard on Friday nights before going out, and let it grow back the rest of the week. Then shaving the rest of my face before work takes 30 seconds, tops. :) "Coca-Cola® and Armageddon® / We like it, like it, yes we do!" -- Clutch.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   184.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by Chasuk       at Sat 25 Jan 3:55am score of 1   in reply to comment 47     I don't look like Grizzly Adams, though I do have a full beard. I usually keep it neatly trimmed, which takes me all of ten minutes during an average WEEK. As for food particles, I suppose I spend twenty seconds a day, cumulative, making sure that they do not adhere to my beard. Considering that I've had a full beard now for over a decade, I am speaking from considerable experience. I will confess that all of this fuss confuses me. I expect that a person be 1) clean, and 2) tidy, and I care nothing else about his or her physical attributes, unless I'm fucking them, and then my preferences vary from the USian norm (no depilation, no breast augmentation, sparing use of cosmetics). As we have sex with only a small percentage of the people we meet, why are their hairy armpits important? An admission: I am bisexual, so maybe this gives me a different perspective. But I don't think so. I mean, I find both Tarzan and Jane sexy, but not Cheetah (referring to Cheetah's hirsuteness, not his?/her? gender). Yes, if Cheetah were a human man or woman, then Cheetah would have too much hair. A naturally hairless person would be all right: I don't need hair to be aroused, but I find it creepy when someone shaves it off. A woman's hairy armpit is a wonderfully sexy thing. It demonstrates to me the attitude: "I'm a woman. Like you, I have body hair. Like you, I don't shave it off. If you expect me to change myself to suit you, go fuck yourself." If I expect her to accept me without conditions, and that is my expectation (indeed, my requirement before any relationship begins), then I expect her to have the self-confidence to require likewise. Self-confidence in a woman (or in a man) is sexy, far more than any considerations of body hair. But that's just my opinion. Neopets - the best free game on the Internet.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   194.  Re: fellate?   by andy p       at Mon 27 Jan 9:06am score of 1   in reply to comment 128     My dictionary says cunnilingus is pussy specific, but fellate is a general blanket term for all such activities. And for the record, we're talking female bush. Barrels are just crates with delusions of grandeur   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   25.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by jandrese       at Thu 23 Jan 11:31am score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 8     Er, if she's already naked, then it's a little too late to be deciding if she looks good enough unless you're hanging out at nude beaches or dating strippers. There's some entertainment value in watching people juggle nitroglycerin. -- Larry Wall   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   92.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by semorel       at Thu 23 Jan 3:45pm score of 1   in reply to comment 25     It's never too late. Anyone can call it off at any time and for any reason. There is no such thing as a selfless act. We get something out of everything we do!!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   116.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by nave       at Thu 23 Jan 5:36pm score of 1   in reply to comment 92     Anyone? Like her father? I don't like this at all.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   169.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by semorel       at Fri 24 Jan 1:37pm score of 1   in reply to comment 116     Sounds like a rather sick threesome if you ask me. There is no such thing as a selfless act. We get something out of everything we do!!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   121.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by eduardo       at Thu 23 Jan 6:01pm score of 1.5 succinct   in reply to comment 8     I agree with you, especially on the last paragraph. Who cares what the femenist view on this should be. I am a man and I would not have a gf or wife with hairy armpits and legs. I don't care if you don't like to shave, you need to decide whats more important to you: me or your hair. Because I have already made my decision. I don't care if I am the last guy on earth to feel this way, but while I am here women WILL have to shave if they want to be with me. Men do a lot of shit that they wouldn't do if not for women. Washing the car is (sometimes) one of 'em. I personally don't care how many fossils can be found in those layers of soil and mud, but women do, so the car gets cleaned. Etc ad nauseum. Again, I totally agree with you. If you're a man who likes hairy women, by all means... if you're a woman who likes her hair so much that she doesn't wish to part with it... again, more power to you. Just don't expect me to NOT throw you out of my bed when i discover it. J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   133.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by Advil       at Thu 23 Jan 9:29pm score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 121     I don't believe you for one second. If you are madly in love with a girl, and she happens to have a hair here or there, would you NOT date her? That makes you sound like the typical Anglo Male Chauvinist pig, who not many women actually WOULD date given a choice. And, by the way, are you eating your own dog food? Meaning: do YOU shave down there, too?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   134.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by Anywhere       at Thu 23 Jan 10:04pm score of 1   in reply to comment 133     That makes you sound like the typical Anglo Male Chauvinist pig I'll grant you that cookiepus did exactly put it very tactfully, but are you saying he isn't entitled to have his taste? Should he lie and stay in a relationship with someone to whom he is not physically attracted? Also, why an "Anglo" Male Chauvinist? Is it only anglos who have a preference in the physical appearance of women? For the record, if I recall from previous posts, cookiepus is from Russia and therefore not an "Anglo". And, by the way, are you eating your own dog food? Meaning: do YOU shave down there, too? For one thing, in his post, cookiepus specifically said armpits and legs, not "down there." For another, even if he was referring to "down there", it's irrelevant. He's expressing his taste in women. If the woman in question is happy with whatever the state of cookiepus' "down there" is, then all is well; if not, then they each might have some choices to make. Gateway computers are pieces of shit, and their customer service is abysmal. Ask me why if you want to hear me vent.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   147.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by eduardo       at Fri 24 Jan 7:22am score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 133     If you are madly in love with a girl, and she happens to have a hair here or there, would you NOT date her? That's right. If she was reciprocating the vibe, she would shave there for me. That makes you sound like the typical Anglo Male Chauvinist pig, who not many women actually WOULD date given a choice Women HATE men who know what they like. And, by the way, are you eating your own dog food? Meaning: do YOU shave down there, too? No. J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   126.  Re: Newsflash for the author of that article:   by Lady Aviendha       at Thu 23 Jan 6:55pm score of 1   in reply to comment 8     Even better, spend some time grooming your pubic hair. Mind taking your own advice on that one? I know I've pondered why most men wouldn't dream of shaving their pubic hair. After all, whoever it's on, it tends to look gross, and can get in the way at times. And, if you told a girl you were shaved.. she might be shocked and want to LOOK. But, also, I've heard men, and know from experience that for women, being smooth down there feels good. God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

10.  yow!   by thornz       at Thu 23 Jan 10:42am score of 1     How many women shaved their legs with straight razors? The idea seems scary, not only as a huge amount of time to spend on that area but also as being potentially dangerous. random observations: - When I was younger, I dated a cuban who hated shaving because she got those little red bumps and irritated skin from it. At the time, I didn't care so much. I was 17 and having the first sex of my life, I could care less about the bristles against my legs. Now, it's still not the hugest issue in the world if she goes a bit longer between shaves, but cleanshaven is definitely preferred. - I'm meeting more and more women who shave not only armpits and legs, but who go so far as to wax around their (what word to use for polite conversation? All that come to mind are either too scientific, too hokey, or too vulgar) vaginal area. To the degree that it's beginning to seem like the rule rather than the exception. I remember a time when it seemed like only time I ever saw a shorn bush was in porn. When I asked the girls who I found out did it, the answer was always inevitably some combination of being cleaner and liking how it looks more. I'm wondering if it's also partially inspired by the belief that men like it more too. (personally I used to, but it's lost it's excitement)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

23.  Re: yow!   by veschke       at Thu 23 Jan 11:18am score of 1   in reply to comment 10     They didn't. They did do all kinds of other stuff, though... Cynicism is the opposite of wisdom.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   89.  Re: yow!   by luna bizarre       at Thu 23 Jan 3:13pm score of 1   in reply to comment 10     I've always wondered how people can "de-hair" their genitalia (you don't need to be PC, scientific or vulgar, the word genitalia will do just fine). First, it itches like a motherf*@#!er when it grows back in. Second, it hurts like a motherf*@#!er to wax it. Thirdly (my subjective take on the matter), it makes the man/woman appear pre-pubescent, usually for sexual reasons...I find that a bit creepy. Sure, being excessively hairy could make you smell bad since the hair traps the oil produced from your sebaceous glands down there, and then your bacterium have a big party... but "bald" women from the waist down look too much like little girls, and "bald" men from the waist down look like weird plucked chicken hybrids. I understand that some people really dig being bald (my friends and ex lovers included), and I understand their reasons for it, but it's just doesn't float my boat. My solution: good hygiene and a neat trim. ~The sleep of reason produces monsters~   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   115.  Re: yow!   by CoFenchurch       at Thu 23 Jan 5:31pm score of 1   in reply to comment 89     I used to de-hair in that area, and when I met my current husband, after a few weeks he asked me to let it grow. He found the pre-pubescent look creepy, as well.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   180.  Re: yow!   by evie       at Fri 24 Jan 8:04pm score of 1   in reply to comment 89     Well, for me, it doesn't itch if I get waxed (but yes shaving is horrible). It hurts less the more regularly you do it, but I'm willing to put up with that as I think the pleasurable returns for oral sex are worth. The pre-pubescent argument is one I take issue with. I do not look pre-pubescent. I really don't think my vagina doesn't look pre-pubescent whether or not it is waxed. Even taken out of context (say one of those terrible cunt-shot only pics) I don't think it looks pre-pubescent, but frankly I'm not interested in having sex with someone who focusses only on my vagina so that's not an issue. I do think that having my vagina waxed makes me feel more sexually powerful. Its hard to explain as it is an emotional thing, but its as though, well nothing is hiding my vagina now, I am woman, hear me roar (etc etc). As for hygiene, I don't think its necessary. Actually I would say that waxing is probably a little against hygiene reasons as the hair also provides a protective mechanism, but I'm willing to risk it. Your comment scores 100 on the Flesch scale of reading ease, making it comparable to selections from Dr. Seuss.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

11.  When did shaving become a feminist issue?   by ilsa       at Thu 23 Jan 10:50am score of 1.5 brilliant     Alright, yes, I shave. Not because society says I should, not because people I care about tell me to. I do it for completely selfish reasons. I shave my legs because I don't like itchy leg hair and because leg hair pokes through on the rare occasion I wear pantyhose. If that image disturbed you, go ahead and scroll down to the last paragraph now, because I'm just getting started. I shave my armpits so they are not quite so stinky, and so I don't look strange in a white shirt or anything sleeveless. I shave down there because it makes certain adult activities feel nicer and because there are few things grosser than dried menstrual fluid in one's pubic hair. Totally selfish. Over the years I have also known men who shave various parts of thier body, including thier chests, intimate parts, and gasp faces! Nevertheless I do not see anyone complaining about the torture of putting a razor to one's own face daily. Nobody is talking about how it's just one more responsibility heaped on the men of the western world, or about how the ideal of male beauty demands this. Just like I have my own reasons for shaving, other people both male and female have thier own reasons.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

41.  Re: When did shaving become a feminist issue?   by Linux Ate My Dog!       at Thu 23 Jan 12:45pm score of 1   in reply to comment 11     Nevertheless I do not see anyone complaining about the torture of putting a razor to one's own face daily. Then you haven't been reading many men's health & lifestyle magazines lately. It comes up almost every second issue. "He's old school." -- byrne   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   45.  Another selfish reason for shaving   by jenmac       at Thu 23 Jan 12:58pm score of 1   in reply to comment 11     I'm with you; I must have missed the memo on the feminism/shaving connection. I shave my legs, not just for societal approval and the whole pantyhose question, but also because I am pale, pale, pale. As Conan O'Brien says, I'm one of those people who goes out in the sun and bursts into flame. As a result, when I don't shave, the dead skin cells on my legs tend to make me look wan and blotchy. Shaving is a kick-ass exfoliant. It evens out my skin tone, it makes my skin look brighter. Plus, if I ever get the desire to apply a fake tan to my legs, I can get a smooth coat on. Of course, if you shave, you should NOT APPLY ANY OTHER EXFOLIANTS TO YOUR LEGS. I once forgot this rule, and slathered on some lotion that was full of alpha-hydroxy acids. After about an hour, I felt like I were being eaten alive by jellyfish. Not the image of sleekness I was trying to project at all. I also pluck my eyebrows about once every seven minutes, just to keep my inner Brezhnev at bay. :) Is it sticky? Would it kill you? -- snut_rucket's son at the La Brea tar pits   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   60.  Re: When did shaving become a feminist issue?   by TheMCP       at Thu 23 Jan 1:30pm score of 1   in reply to comment 11     Over the years I have also known men who shave various parts of thier body, including thier chests, intimate parts, and gasp faces! Nevertheless I do not see anyone complaining about the torture of putting a razor to one's own face daily. [waves hand] I'll complain! I'll complain! As a teenager when I started growing facial hair my father told me very firmly that I was to start shaving regularly and keep my face hair free because that's what men did in that time and place. I quickly learned to dread this activity. I have a mole on my face under my mustache and every single time I shaved it would get cut and bleed profusely. I got tired of the pain and the blood and the embarrassment. My father gave me an electric shaver to try, but it kept plucking my whiskers painfully and I got a facial rash every time I used it. Finally one day my calculus teacher suggested I should just grow a mustache and be done with it. Soon I was the only guy in high school with one. My father complained profusely but I flatly refused to shave it. Shaving the rest of my face resulted in enough cuts and blood, I wasn't going to shave the part I knew with certainty would give me pain. The principal pointed out that it was in fact illegal for me to have facial hair in school, but then explained that it was also illegal for him and he had a full beard so he could hardly complain. (Really swift. I could beat the crap out of a fellow student and the school wouldn't be able to do anything worse than give me detention, but grow a mustache and they can legally kick me out of school.) When I was 19 I decided I wanted to grow a beard because I was tired of shaving the rest of my face daily. However, I learned I couldn't: my boss told me it was okay if I had a beard (some of my coworkers did) or not, but that I wasn't allowed to let it grow in while I worked for him because that scruffy period while it's not fully grown is "unprofessional". (Then he sent me home and docked my pay because I hadn't shaved that day.) When I left the company I grew my beard in immediately. End of line.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   172.  Re: When did shaving become a feminist issue?   by Ajax       at Fri 24 Jan 3:02pm score of 1   in reply to comment 60     The principal pointed out that it was in fact illegal for me to have facial hair in school...grow a mustache and they can legally kick me out of school...my boss told me it was okay if I had a beard (some of my coworkers did) or not, but that I wasn't allowed to let it grow in while I worked for him because that scruffy period while it's not fully grown is "unprofessional". My word! I'll stand by your right to complain -- you seem to have been exposed to a disproportionate share of arbitrary facial-hair regulatory practices. Where'd you go to school, and in what industry did you work, that they felt they could get away with these restrictions? "Coca-Cola® and Armageddon® / We like it, like it, yes we do!" -- Clutch.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   80.  Oh, don't you worry   by Imp777       at Thu 23 Jan 2:32pm score of 1.5 succinct   in reply to comment 11     There are a good many of us who despise it. But we simply won't be hired in a majority of professions if we didn't. that is unless we already have some sort of terminal degree, after which we can grow the beard as much as we please. And as for why you don't hear us complain, what do you really think is going to be the response? Anything besides "stop whining sissy"? And plus if you have anything thicker than fine yellow hairs growing out of your face, shaving closely does little else but encourage ingrown hairs. Mmm, infected ingrown hairs all over my neck. Onion, Potato, zucchini, carrot, STEW!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   164.  Re: When did shaving become a feminist issue?   by Minivet       at Fri 24 Jan 12:06pm score of 1   in reply to comment 11     Lord Byron complained about it, suggesting the aggregate lifetime pain of shaving approximated the pain of childbirth: Poor thing of usages! coerced, compell'd, Victim when wrong, and martyr oft when right, Condemn'd to child-bed, as men for their sins Have shaving too entail'd upon their chins,- A daily plague, which in the aggregate May average on the whole with parturition. He was wrong, of course, and would be much more wrong now, but ya gotta love that verse.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

12.  Hyperpilosity   by SacredGroundChuck       at Thu 23 Jan 10:53am score of 1     L. Sprague deCamp had a great short story titled "Hyperpilosity", where a virus hits the world that makes all body hair grow faster and longer. By the end of the story, a cure is found - but everyone's gotten used to little or no clothing on, and a movie starlet's platinum hair is her entire pelt. People accepted it and moved on. The clothing industry collapsed, but the hygiene companies made out like bandits. I have a feeling that our (Western? American?) acceptance of hair on women's bodies will be all (over the body) or nothing (except what we already accept, like the top of the head, pubic area, eyebrows, etc.). While I appreciate a smooth pair of legs, I leave that up to my wife, and it should be the choice of any woman whether or not to shave. Last point: a female impersonator told my wife the secret of his/her great legs, even when unshaven: two pairs of hose, one opaque, the other with some pattern or look to them. The eye was directed to the pattern, and it looked surprisingly natural - enough for some not-in-the-know guys to give chase and get surprised with a deep male voice. Funniest thing I ever saw. "Did you know that the human brain is the only computer in the universe made of meat?"   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

16.  Have some rambling   by veschke       at Thu 23 Jan 11:10am score of 2 brilliant     I went for a number of years as a twenty-something American female without shaving. Stopped during college as a Statement. My now-husband did not mind, nor did the people around me run screaming; in fact no one ever commented or even gave me a strange glance on the train. Eventually I started up again, as I was tired of the look. May quit again some day. What it comes down to for me is, every culture has its own ideas of what makes someone attractive, and every culture provides some artificial means to get it. Whether that means putting on a few extra pounds, shoving things through your lower lip, or shaving your 'pits, is immaterial. As long as you know what it is you are doing and why, and how essentially meaningless it is--that you are participating by choice in a beauty ritual born of cultural factors and just as inherently big-m Meaningful as the rules of table tennis--then you're all right in my book. It's okay to play a game if everyone knows it's a game. Shaving, neckties, makeup, weird shoes, cufflinks... all game. Once hair grows out past a quarter-inch or so it stops itching, by the way. Also, my husband wears a beard. I would no more insist that he shave than I would insist he wear nothing but blue. It's his face, for pity's sake, not mine. Cynicism is the opposite of wisdom.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

18.  So, to sum up...   by n29_w95       at Thu 23 Jan 11:11am score of 3 funny     Ladies: A shaved pubis makes cunnilingus easier. Gents: A pentagram shaved into one's back-hair is a good conversation starter at the beach. ... as you were. ---Pie is good!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

50.  Re: So, to sum up...   by CaptainLiberal       at Thu 23 Jan 1:11pm score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 18     Ladies: A shaved pubis makes cunnilingus easier. What about mystery, man? What about the joys of discovery, the brushing back of hair to reveal a shimmering jewel in the jungle? Every dream turns into something on a T-shirt -- Shriekback   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   58.  [shrug] Maybe you're right, CL.   by n29_w95       at Thu 23 Jan 1:24pm score of 1   in reply to comment 50     "brushing back of hair" - "brushing of backhair" 'Zall good, Cap'n. ---Pie is good!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   69.  Re: So, to sum up...   by Goldmund       at Thu 23 Jan 1:58pm score of 2.5 funny   in reply to comment 50     Dude, it's a vagina, not the jewel of the nile. Besides, your reason for being down there isn't to admire and gush (though, that's good as foreplay) it's to lingous the cuni. Hair gets in the way, but, if you like the wookie look, more power to ya.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   77.  Re: So, to sum up...   by CaptainLiberal       at Thu 23 Jan 2:18pm score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 69     Dude, it's a vagina, not the jewel of the nile. You lack romance, Goldmund. It's a vagina and the jewel of the nile all at once. Look, I'm a proud member of the IEP fraternity, and I enjoy it immensely, but a little hair doesn't cause me too many difficulties. Got a hair in your mouth? Place your tongue on her thigh and lick firmly. The hair is now attached to her thigh, not your tongue, and she just gave an extra little wiggle. As for the wookie look, there's a ton of room between jungle-bush and prepubescent. That said, I like it all ways. Hair, no hair, pierced, painted, rouged or perfumed. My enthusiasm for the act is undimmed by natural hair or natural smells. Every dream turns into something on a T-shirt -- Shriekback   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   83.  Re: So, to sum up...   by bellydancer       at Thu 23 Jan 2:44pm score of 2.5 funny   in reply to comment 77     Place your tongue on her thigh and lick firmly. The hair is now attached to her thigh, not your tongue, and she just gave an extra little wiggle. Is it getting warm in here or is it just me?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   131.  Re: So, to sum up...   by n29_w95       at Thu 23 Jan 9:14pm score of 1   in reply to comment 83     "Is it getting warm in here or is it just me? " [looking self-consciously around the pool, kinda moving away from the others] "Uh, I didn't notice anything..." ---Pie is good!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

24.  Tell ya what, sweetie   by smackspice       at Thu 23 Jan 11:22am score of 1     You shave yours and I'll shave mine. You first. You can't be a non-conformist if you don't drink coffee. - Trey Parker   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

26.  women also prefer no body hair   by Anonymous Idiot       at Thu 23 Jan 11:40am score of 0.5 compelling     as a guy with a hairy back, chest, neck, arms, ears, etc, I can't tell you how many girlfriends asked me to shave, wax, etc. women blame men for liking shaven legs, but ask them how attractive a guy with back hair is and even if they don't tell you in words, watch their face. both sexes prefer little hair and I know.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

29.  The benefits of some hair   by Dvandom       at Thu 23 Jan 11:53am score of 1     A very light touch has even more impact when there's hair there to brush with your fingertips. Especially on leg hair. Now, if you look like sasquatch, that's too much hair for this to work. But very few women reach this level, and a little fuzz on the tummy or chest can add enjoyment to fooling around. ---Dave, only has a spade beard because a "don't shave at all" beard looks sad on him, and it's too much trouble to keep anything in between symmetrical.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

31.  Guys, here's who to blame for those shaving woes   by Brian Jones       at Thu 23 Jan 11:55am score of 1     Slick Watts. Cheap crass attention-whoring plug goes here.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

35.  I could care less   by BitterCupOJoe       at Thu 23 Jan 12:08pm score of 1     Shave or don't shave. Doesn't matter. Except for mustaches. Mustaches are just creepy, even on guys. Of course, that's just my opinion, as are pretty much all beauty ideals. Everyone's sexuality is made up of a collection of fetishes, of varying degrees. It's just that, for the most part, all of my other fetishes are overridden by my primary one: the athletic naked woman fetish. "This is your world. These are your people. You can live for yourself today, or help build tomorrow for everyone."   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

37.  Hairless is better for "lunch at the Y"   by JohnnySmash       at Thu 23 Jan 12:25pm score of 1     I don't expect a woman to shave her pussy completely, but I do prefer her to keep it neatly trimmed. I love going downtown and it sucks to get hair caught in my teeth or my throat. It takes away from the experience, especially if I start gagging on a hair midway. And since turnaround is fair play, I keep my own pubic area neatly trimmed as well (including a "breathtakingly shorn scrotum"). The way I see it, the better it looks down there, the more likely she is to "spend time" down there. My own experience confirms this. I don't think this is nearly the cultural divide it used to be. Some men don't mind and, in fact, prefer hairy women. Some women don't mind and, in fact, prefer hairy men. Both genders are now being treated as sex objects in the media, hence the success of both "The Bachelor" and "The Bachelorette." We're all pieces of meat, some of us just have different cuts of that meat. Speaking of which, I've got to go baste a rump roast.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

40.  Cringing for inevitable backlash   by gparizot       at Thu 23 Jan 12:43pm score of 1     Me, I'm a hairy ape, with hair on my back, in my ears, but of course not on the top of my head (well, it's getting thin). My wife, a Korean, doesn't ever shave, nor does she need to. Of course, I have always felt that my wife is the epitome of womanhood and sexiness and all that, but I also know that a great number of Causcasians have, um, Asian fetishes. Does this have to do with the hair or lack thereof? Sure, even I think Asian women are prettier than most western women, but I think a lot of that has to do with the lifestyle. Asians in Asia walk everywhere. They're generally thin and have great legs. We Americans (and Europeans and Australians, etc.) tend to live more sedentary lives, and are generally less in shape. So, I think body hair is certainly part of the equation, but not the whole story. A healthy, trim body is as much a turn-on as a lack of a moustache. I'll go hide under my desk now. "Just 'cause you feel it doesn't mean it's there" - Radiohead   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

42.  Completely OT   by Nephthys       at Thu 23 Jan 12:45pm score of 1.5 astute     Why do submitters and the editors insist on using the "feminism" appellation for any and all submissions/stories that are remotely related to women? To shave or not to shave is not a feminist issue. It has nothing to do with equal rights in the work place, equal pay, violence against women, or any other "feminist" issue. Oh silly me, I just noticed, the feminism icon has hairy pits. I'll be sure to call NOW, Bitch Magazine, and all the other "feminist" organizations and tell them to jump right on the hair issue. Cake or Death? Cake, please.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

53.  Re: Completely OT   by CaptainLiberal       at Thu 23 Jan 1:16pm score of 1   in reply to comment 42     From the write-up: An entertaining yet probing article by a self-confessed 'serial depilator' asks why feminism has managed to win many battles except the one over female body hair. While stipulating that the Feminism icon is overused, I'd suggest that when the writer of the original article specifically frames the issue in terms of feminism, it's okay to put it in Feminism. Every dream turns into something on a T-shirt -- Shriekback   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   91.  Re: Completely OT   by zyxwvutsr       at Thu 23 Jan 3:31pm score of 1   in reply to comment 42     '...editors insist on using the "feminism" appellation...' CaptainLiberal is correct. From the article: 'depilation is the battle that feminism lost' ...and... 'I'm not even sure that radical feminists themselves have the balls to make a show of their natural body hair these days, as they did for a brief moment in the 70s. The only visibly hairy woman at the forefront of feminism today appears to be Andrea Dworkin, and she looks as though she neither waxes nor washes, nor flushes nor flosses, and thus doesn't really count.'   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   95.  Re: Completely OT   by Minister of Inferior       at Thu 23 Jan 4:12pm score of 1.5 clever   in reply to comment 42     To shave or not to shave is not a feminist issue. It has nothing to do with equal rights in the work place, equal pay, violence against women, or any other "feminist" issue. People who equate the feminist project solely with removing visible barriers like those you mention don't know the first thing about it. Firstly, feminism is vaguely defined, and one should generally be very careful with saying things like "X is not a feminist issue" without being able to argue extensively for it, something you are clearly incapable of doing. Secondly, feminism, as most serious feminists regard it, is about relieving oppression on all levels, not only monetary and legal. It's about what redefining what should be expected of us, about making visible the way we are formed from birth by societal expectations. Let me provide you with a couple of examples: That girls play with dolls while boys play with guns is a feminist issue. That girls like pink and boys like blue is a feminist issue. That girls grow up to become secretaries and boys grow up to become engineers is a feminist issue. And That girls are expected to shave everywhere while men aren't is, by any reasonable definition of feminism, a feminist issue. There is a reason the feminist icon has hairy pits. That reason is that this has long been a feminist concern, which editors of NOW and Bitch Magazine are no doubt aware of already. No need to to call and inform them. There are a lot of strands of feminism that are about things most people consider tangential to what the woman's rights movement should be about, say, getting rid of sexism in natural language (equating "man" with "humanity" etc.) and putting an end to the mandatory anal sex scene in your average porno flick. But this, the hairy-armpit-issue, is not one of them. Why don't you read up a little before you tell us all what feminism is about? There's a lot of books on feminism. And, as with most books, it's particularly fun when the subject is new to you. someone you trust is one of us   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   97.  Re: Completely OT   by Nephthys       at Thu 23 Jan 4:24pm score of 1.5 brilliant   in reply to comment 95     /me hands her bra to Minister of the Inferior. Hold this for me while I light it on fire would you? Dont you DARE deign to tell me about feminism. Not that I should have to defend myself here is this: Pit shaving is the least of my worries as a woman. I am offended and appalled that we are even discussing this stupid and trivial topic. Lumping my choice to shave or not into the big "feminist" melting pot only dilutes the issues that have an actual impact on the quality of life. My point, as a feminist, is: shave or not. Who gives a shit. And if you choose to shave, do it for your own reasons, and not for some lame excuse for beauty forcefed to you by the media or by men. Now, give me back my bra. Cake or Death? Cake, please.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   101.  Re: Completely OT   by eduardo       at Thu 23 Jan 4:36pm score of 1   in reply to comment 95     one should generally be very careful with saying things like "X is not a feminist issue" without being able to argue extensively for it, something you are clearly incapable of doing. Back in the day it was commonly accepted that a woman was incapable of arguing points. I hear that's changed now... J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   104.  Re: Completely OT   by zyxwvutsr       at Thu 23 Jan 4:53pm score of 1   in reply to comment 95     Dude...some chick just took off her bra and handed it to you. Quit while you're ahead.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   111.  Re: Completely OT   by Xiamin       at Thu 23 Jan 5:27pm score of 1.5 astute   in reply to comment 97     My point, as a feminist, is: shave or not. Who gives a shit. And if you choose to shave, do it for your own reasons, and not for some lame excuse for beauty forcefed to you by the media or by men. Here are some of my own views of feminism. Pit shaving is not a big concern for you. It warms my heart to hear that it's not a problem for you. However, I think that the fact that so many women take it for granted that they should shave their armpits, legs, and maybe trim their pubic hair is a feminist issue. It might not be at the same level of importance as salaries, but it is still an issue. Look at the reactions of many posters here to women with body hair. A great lot of them react with revulsion. Why isn't the cultural push for conformity to an ideal that is for many women painful and time consuming to achieve be a feminist issue? Certainly women are freer now than they were a few decades ago to go unshaven, but I don't think you can claim it is a choice completely free of value judgement for most people, like hair length is now, or pants vs skirts. Though fashion swings back and forth about hair length and whether skirts are in and how high the hem lines are, women are free to choose what they want to wear, and what sort of haircut they like. Granted, some people will associate certain short hair cuts and more masculine dress with lesbianism, but it's not the days of Bearnice Bobs Her Hair anymore. The reason this is a feminist issue for some people other than you, is that many people take the media fed ideals of gender-role beauty for granted. 'Did you come here alone?' 'No, I came with my bicycle.'   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   139.  Re: Completely OT   by Nephthys       at Thu 23 Jan 11:55pm score of 1.5 brilliant   in reply to comment 111     I agree. But one has to pick their battles. This is one I choose not to pick... I should have followed my own heart in responding in the first place to this damned thread. The issue for me in not to remove hair or not. The issue is the underlying problem of media imposed beauty ideals, as you so wisely pointed out. Look at a playboy from 30 years ago. Those women had big hairy bushes. If the women of porn had not recently started to shave, would men still be clamoring for it? Yes, many men here are repulsed by body hair. It just proves once again how shallow and imaged-obsessed they all are. Just look at many of the women in sports threads, inevitably the thread verges into how "hot" an athlete is or how topless competition would improve the game. Now, does the media need to stop feeding unnatural and unrealistic ideas to the public or does the public need to grow up and stop objectifying women? Cake or Death? Cake, please.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   154.  Re: Completely OT   by halfwit       at Fri 24 Jan 8:45am score of 1   in reply to comment 139     It proves once again how shallow and image obsessed they are. It's only natural to be affected by the beauty standards of your social group. The Renaissance Europeans favored Ruebenesque women (and presumably ruebenesque men, although I'm not sure). The Middle Ages idolized pale skin in men and women because it signified not needing to work for a living. Some primitive tribes esteemed women with disproportionately large butts. Other primitive tribes have the men, and not the women, wearing revealing outfits and strutting around with a hip-swaying walk. Men and women have been obsessed with the popular views of beauty since the beginning of time. If you're going to label modern man shallow for it, then I guess the whole race is shallow. And the reason discussion of women's sports inevitably turn to sex is that we like sex with healthy women. Just like most of the women I know who watch men's football drool over some of the players. If you want that to stop, you're going to have to castrate an awful lot of people.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   158.  Re: Completely OT   by Minister of Inferior       at Fri 24 Jan 10:26am score of 1   in reply to comment 97     In this reply you say: I am offended and appalled that we are even discussing this stupid and trivial topic. and My point, as a feminist, is: shave or not. Who gives a shit. In the response to Xiamin, who among other things wrote that I think that the fact that so many women take it for granted that they should shave their armpits, legs, and maybe trim their pubic hair is a feminist issue. you only six hours later seems to have switched sides completely and agree. You go on saying that one has to pick their battles. This is one I choose not to pick... Now, what's it going to be? Is it a feminist issue or not? Are you "offended and appalled" at the very idea of it being a feminist issue, or is it merely a battle you don't want to fight because other causes should be given priority? Dont you DARE deign to tell me about feminism. A little touchy, aren't we? When you come off as knowing absolutely nothing about a major issue for many feminists, and don't even seem to know your own stance, I dare point it out to you. If that is a problem for you, maybe message boards of this kind aren't really your thing. someone you trust is one of us   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   188.  Re: Completely OT   by Nephthys       at Sat 25 Jan 2:21pm score of 1   in reply to comment 158     So, in your opinion, not only am I ignorant of women's issues, but message boards aren't my thing? Minister of Inferior Nephthys I wasn't going to play "more feminist than thou" with you, but since you insist on screaming and ranting at my ignorance and personal opinions I might as well play your silly game. * I can show you the piles of receipts from donations, as well as time volunteering, to various women's issues such as NOW, Planned Parenthood, and the League of Women Voters. * The years of letters, emails and messages to my Congress Critters and others expressing my views on various women's and children's issues. * The letters and emails of protest to corporations whose advertising objectified or degraded women. * My boycotting of stores, restaurants, goods, and services with poor track records on gender equality and/or their support of anti-abortion causes. * The letter of commendation from a municipal victim's organization connected to the DA's office for my work with rape victims. * My integral role in changing the policies and procedures of a local hospital in how they treat rape victims. * My work as a clinic defender when women were harassed and assaulted on their way to family planning clinics. * My participation in several marches and protests calling attention to women's issues. * My letters decrying the appalling conditions of women and girls in Afghanistan - 3 years ago - before most of the west had even heard the word Burqua. * My paystubs from working my ass off in male-dominated fields, fighting for every ounce of respect, not letting the misogynistic comments and abuse stop me from doing what I loved. * And finally, the fact that I have a uterus. Cake or Death? Cake, please.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   191.  Re: Completely OT   by Minister of Inferior       at Sat 25 Jan 8:31pm score of 1   in reply to comment 188     I point out that two of your comments contradict, and that you don't recognize as a feminist issue something that is clearly so. While I am very impressed by all your worthy contributions to the feminist cause and your staggering amount of karma, I fail to see what this has to do with anything. someone you trust is one of us   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   100.  Re: Completely OT   by eduardo       at Thu 23 Jan 4:32pm score of 1 obnoxious   in reply to comment 42     This femenist I used to hook up with back in the day asked me if I knew what the greatest single issue facing femenists today was. "Spit or swallow" I replied, after some careful thought. She looked at me with more hate than usual. "Hairy armpits?" I asked appologetically? J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   135.  Re: Completely OT   by Advil       at Thu 23 Jan 10:05pm score of 1   in reply to comment 100     you really sound like one bitter dude. What did the female world do to you? You suffering from a hairy penis by any chance?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   148.  Re: Completely OT   by eduardo       at Fri 24 Jan 7:26am score of 1   in reply to comment 135     You suffering from a hairy penis by any chance? If you are asking whether patches of hair are growing out of my urethra, no. I do have a nice hairy crotch. Hope this helps. J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

62.  It all depends.   by Goldmund       at Thu 23 Jan 1:39pm score of 1.5 compelling     I'm a hairy guy. It's not that I have an inordinate amount, it's just that what I have is very evenly distributed, coarse and very wiry. As a high school friend used to joke, all my hair is "short and curlies." I was a cyclist and runner for a time in high school and shaved my legs. I hated it, but it helped out with everything from wind resistance, wearing biker shorts/pants (spandex and hair do not mix) to getting my leg hairs caught in the gears (yeah, that hurts). After I gave up cycling, I stopped shaving, entirely. I had long hair on my head, legs, face and crotch. That went on for several years until I became sexually active when I realized that: a) most women do not find body hair attractive and b) my personal hygiene was aided by shaving. I know there are some of you out there, but not high school girls and not the ones that I knew. So, I started keeping everything neat and trimmed and it improved everything from the amount of dates I got to my body odor. My girlfriend never shaved before she met me, but at my request she does. I prefer it and I'm not ashamed of that. It makes cunnilingus easier, more pleasant and less smelly (scents tend to catch and hold in hairs). She hates the shaving, but we have an arrangement. I shave my face, shoulders, back and arse and she keeps a trimmed bush. It works out well. I don't care if she shaves her armpits and I don't care if she shaves her legs so it's not a hairless fetish, it's a practical penchant for not getting pubes stuck in my teeth/throat during oral sex, ya dig? My back hair is only getting worse, though, creeping down from my neck to connect with my ass hair sometime in the next decade or so. That's why I'll be getting my hair lasered off when I get the money for it. It's not that I find hair disgusting or unpleasant, I just don't like it on certain parts of my body. Anywhere that's close or near metal (zippers, buttons, whatever) tends to get caught in things, it itches, it smells, and it just makes me feel ugly. Maybe I am succumbing to a marketing pitch, but hell, at least it's one that doesn't cost me much money and doesn't enrich anyone besides the Gillette Company. To all you women out there who don't shave. More power to you. But don't be surprised if some guy starts moving down your hips, stops, and comes back up. Find a hairy man and be done with it. It's all about preference people. Whatever makes you happy, let's try not deride other people's choices too much, though, it's kind of immature.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

81.  Re: It all depends.   by quacksalve       at Thu 23 Jan 2:39pm score of 2 astute   in reply to comment 62     And that, my friends, is what we call too much information. (Goldmund merely continuing the long, fine [or short and curly] tradition started much earlier on the page, though.)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   98.  Re: It all depends.   by eduardo       at Thu 23 Jan 4:24pm score of 1.5 succinct   in reply to comment 62     most women do not find body hair attractive Oh but you're wrong. Didn't you see Austin Powers 2? You're hairy! LIKE ANIMAL! Women want their men to be big burly beasts that can clobber the syber-tooth-mamoth with a club. They don't want plucked chicken. J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   109.  Re: It all depends.   by luna bizarre       at Thu 23 Jan 5:12pm score of 1 helpful   in reply to comment 62     It makes cunnilingus easier, more pleasant and less smelly (scents tend to catch and hold in hairs). - The "scents" you speak of are a by-product of bacteria metabolizing the sebaceous oil that coats the hairs, as well as toxins your body is trying to get rid of. If a woman (or man for that fact) bathes regularly, there shouldn't be a lot of odor down there. If there is, then try changing what you eat - the oil secretions will smell better too. Vegetarians taste and smell much better than those who eat meat (I am not going on an anti-meat rant, but merely stating the obvious). Eating a lot of fresh fruit, especially pineapple, mango and papaya can also improve your "taste and smell" (for those that don't want to give up meat). Hair or no hair is your choice, but if you really feel that your hair is making your body smell, try aloe juice. A teaspoon or so at a time is great for helping to get rid of unpleasant body odor. Since my skin reacts badly to anti-perspirant and most deodorants, I finally decided to try it. As for myself, I trim, not shave - and I have never had a man follow my treasure trail only to recoil in horror. In fact, I usually get complimented for tasting and smelling good. I have a funny story about that actually, but while this may be the time, I don't know that this is the place to share it... ~The sleep of reason produces monsters~   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   143.  Re: It all depends.   by TreeHouseHero       at Fri 24 Jan 1:55am score of 1   in reply to comment 109     It is true about vegatarian/vegan women guys!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   122.  Re: It all depends.   by Kate       at Thu 23 Jan 6:10pm score of 1   in reply to comment 62     It seems to me that cyclists shave to reduce road rash rather than to reduce wind resistance. Personally, I find leg hair and spandex both perfectly comfortable and enormously sexy (even if it's not traditional to cycling.) (Of course, I find anyone on a bicycle pretty sexy.)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   144.  Re: It all depends.   by brokenspoke       at Fri 24 Jan 2:44am score of 1   in reply to comment 122     Ah, the old "road rash" excuse. What a load on (non-shaved) arse. It's tradition. Guys try to give many rationalisations but it comes down to the fact that you are not a "serious roadie" unless you shave your legs. At the moment I prefer the hirstute approach. Riders check you out at the start of a race, see the legs and label you a beginner. Er, no mate, you'll discover this is not the case on the first hill. I may relent soon though. The thing is how far do you go? Just beyond the short line or the full (lady-boy)? Who ate all the pies?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   197.  Re: It all depends.   by inferno       at Fri 31 Jan 6:14am score of 1   in reply to comment 144     Well, they also do it because they get massages every once in a while. I guarantee that having a hairy leg massaged does NOT feel pleasant.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   123.  inquiring minds need to know   by profpeach       at Thu 23 Jan 6:34pm score of 1   in reply to comment 62     How do you shave your back and ass without missing sections? Do you set up a bunch of mirrors or something? I say to them, "Tell that to the lizard people, pal." - rantor   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

66.  As a hairy fella   by the_nameles_one       at Thu 23 Jan 1:43pm score of 1     I think the anti-hair thing is at least as bad for guys as for women. How many bearded men did you see today? Hell I've had facial hair be an issue with nearly every GF I've had. I prefer not to shave they prefer me clean shaven. Luckily my last GF (now my wife) doesn't care a bit. Women with leg hair might have a bit of trouble, but the real horror is spared for men with back hair. Check out this photo gallery and share with some co workers if you care to find some harsh comments... cheers and have a nice lunch "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

182.  Re: As a hairy fella   by evie       at Fri 24 Jan 8:17pm score of 1   in reply to comment 66     True, I'm terrible about the facial hair thing for men. My partner has to shave regularly, I don't want to kiss a prickly face, and I certainly don't want a prickly face going near my more sensitive parts. I told him that when we first started seeing each other, and he accepted that (the same way I know if I let my arm pits go, I can be lazy, he will complain). Your comment scores 100 on the Flesch scale of reading ease, making it comparable to selections from Dr. Seuss.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

74.  Typical Plastic   by sulli       at Thu 23 Jan 2:13pm score of 5 witty     Yet another Etcetera thread descends into Bush bashing. Tout abus sera puni   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

86.  Mod Parent Up!   by Anonymous Idiot       at Thu 23 Jan 2:58pm score of 0.5 astute   in reply to comment 74     Ok, that's the funniest thing I've seen all day.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

88.  Smooth is the way to go   by jd142       at Thu 23 Jan 3:00pm score of 1     I'm a male, and I shave everything except the hair on the very top of my head. Don't like beards or mustaches, no offense to those who do. I like the feeling of smooth skin, and it increases sensations very nicely. I'm also grossed out by men who wear those wife beater t-shirts and have big ol' clumps of pit hair hanging it. It's often much grosser than the women who don't shave, because the men are usually much hairier. Same with hairy legs and backs on guys. So I don't think I'm sexist nor am I a hypocrite. I don't ask women to do anything I'm not doing (and I certainly don't expect every man and woman to shave their pubes like I do, but I do prefer it for people I'm in a position to find out about) and I think women who don't shave and wear sleeveless shirts are less gross than men who don't shave and wear sleeveless shirts.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

94.  Target Market   by mrwarmth       at Thu 23 Jan 4:02pm score of 2.5 interesting     I think people need to decide how important it is to them to be attractive to others, and which others. This is as true about weight, height and age is it is about hair. If a woman does not want to shave her body hair, then she shouldn't. That probably means in our society she will have to look to find men who dig that look, but, this being the modern age, I doubt she'll have any trouble. And by the way, men are also held to ridiculous standards, except they tend not to be appearance related. Men are held by many women to very high economic standards. A guy making minimum wage is about as attractive to a woman as a woman with hairy legs is to most guys. Men tend to be victims of materialism, while women tend to be victims of body fascism. I don't see much to choose between there. It's probably easier to shave your legs than it is to make three times as much money as you currently are, so I would still give women the advantage on this issue. -Niall Where is Ratko Mladic?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

136.  Re: Target Market   by Advil       at Thu 23 Jan 10:13pm score of 0.5 modappeal   in reply to comment 94     Well said, mrwarmth! You deserve 5+ karma for this one.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   155.  Re: Target Market   by halfwit       at Fri 24 Jan 8:55am score of 1   in reply to comment 94     The physical standards for men, while still mild, are getting increasingly strict. I wouldn't be surprised if a man's "beauty" is every bit as important, socially, as a woman's, by the middle of the century. Personally, I'd much rather have women that don't shave around than have to put myself through that pain in the neck routine on a daily basis. But then, I'll be an old fart at the turn of the century anyway, so I probably won't even care.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

107.  I sympathize!   by burningman       at Thu 23 Jan 4:59pm score of 1.5 helpful     I'm a guy. A couple years ago I asked some friends to body cast me using plaster. We did it 3 times (I needed 2 molds). The first time, I was told that with enough Vaseline, I wouldn't have to shave. WRONG, Wrong, wrong! It took 45 minutes to rip the hair out of my body and get clear of the plaster. Probably one of the most painful experiences of my life-brought tears to my eyes at several points.(I kept this mold as a reminder about doing my own research. It is furry inside!) I then spent 4 hours shaving the remains of the hairs on the front half of my body before doing the next 2 casts the next day-which were far less painful. I know I only did it once, but I felt I got a taste of what women go through. (I thanked many of the women I knew at the time for their efforts to keep smooth!)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

108.  I'm a man   by callmejay       at Thu 23 Jan 5:04pm score of 1.5 intriguing     and I "have" to shave almost every day, dress 100x nicer than I would left to my own devices (not saying much,) and not fart in public. How did we as a society get this way? The best lack all conviction, while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity. -- Yeats, "The Second Coming"   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

110.  welcome to my beauty myth   by BUTTONFLYER       at Thu 23 Jan 5:13pm score of 2 interesting     The vast majority of human sexual behavior (and animal sexual behavior as well, for that matter) is learned, not innate. Therefore the line between fetish and cultural norm - thin indeed. Just as a shoe fetishist learns to associate a Manolo with sexual desire because he used to have a babysitter who would give him her shoes to play with while she boinked her boyfriend in the den (I'm speculatin' here!), the general population learns to associate (insert female/male quality here) with sexual desire in a similar way, as I understand it. What's nice about this is that it means sexual norms can change over time - usually a good thing. What's less nice about this is that sexual desire can easily be harnessed in the service of commerce. When they say that sex sells, they aren't just talking about hot girl + car = you buy it. They're also talking about the multi-billion dollar business that men and women (but mostly women) buy into in the hope that it's going to win them some action. Obviously this means not just razors and waxes (though the author does mention a hefty waxing annual expenditure), but everything that we buy to make ourselves desirable. Grooming and decoration are an important part of every culture - and potentially a source of immense pleasure and delight. The problem with grooming and decoration in Western society is that it's become such a source of anxiety - that men and women (again, mostly women) have been sold on the lie that the human body - healthy, clean and cared-for - is not enough to stimulate sexual desire, that it takes hairlessness, or endless changes of clothing, or pore vacuuming, to get to that essential point of connecting sexually with another human being. The extremes that have been pointed out in this thread point to this anxiety: it's either hairless, titless, dye-job infantalized desire incarnate girl-child, or furry, sexless, menstrual-blood-in-the-public-hair dyke, as though one step, only one, down from Eternal Beauty Vigilance will throw us into the land of the lost, hairy feminists. Last year I stopped shaving my underarms. I thought about it; I checked with my boyfriend (with whom I share my body); I made plans to deal with summer-wedding dresses and spaghetti straps when the time came to deal with them (wax in the summer, cardigans in the winter). The world didn't end. I'm still desirable. I'm still healthy. I smell delicious. I'm a lot more confortable than I was when I was shaving them. Everyone wants to be lovely, and adored, and desired, but we are being fed every day with information that tells us this end is only found when you buy buy buy. Yet every day, human beings give the lie to this information. Men and women around the world (maybe even right here in this thread - gasp!) are desiring and fucking and marrying people that look, not like an airbrushed figment of two-dimensional ads on TV, but exactly, perfectly, like themselves. Hey, bravo us! Let's keep doing it and spend the money we save on a case of champagne and a trip to Tahiti. Respect the delicate ecology of your delusions - T. Kushner   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

119.  Re: welcome to my beauty myth   by luna bizarre       at Thu 23 Jan 5:45pm score of 1   in reply to comment 110     You are a goddess. ~The sleep of reason produces monsters~   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   178.  The media is hurting us   by jbou       at Fri 24 Jan 6:20pm score of 1   in reply to comment 110     Good for you, you shed the mean nasty media grip on your mind, as for me, I don't need to justify my life by blaming the media, or anyone else for the things I do, and don't do. Arguments have no chance against petrified training; they wear it as little as the waves wear a cliff.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

114.  some advice   by plasticine       at Thu 23 Jan 5:31pm score of 1.5 funny     for the love of god, don't shave your ass hair!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

118.  Re: some advice   by Atlasshrugged00       at Thu 23 Jan 5:41pm score of 1   in reply to comment 114     Proving once again, you can find anything on the 'Net   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

125.  to quote the masters . . .   by aturley       at Thu 23 Jan 6:46pm score of 1     "She says her armpits are hair 'casue it's natural, so why does she shave her head?" andy Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between irony and sincerity.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

140.  Her suit   by dagnabbitt       at Fri 24 Jan 12:16am score of 1     Actually, I think that the assumption that men prefer hairless women is made on shaky ground. Why do some women wear lots of makeup, high heels, and diet obsessively? None of these things are attractive to me, or any other guy I know. As for body hair, well, everything in moderation, I say, and that goes for men as well. I find these truths to be self-evident.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

142.  Re: Her suit   by landonair       at Fri 24 Jan 1:06am score of 1.5 succinct   in reply to comment 140     There's a huge difference between what men actually like and what they say they like in order to be politically correct. "It's so easy to say things that are so idealistic without reasoning and thinking them out in the big picture"   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   165.  Re: Her suit   by Greg_Ace       at Fri 24 Jan 12:22pm score of 1   in reply to comment 142     One man's viewpoint: I have a bald spot that's so sparsely haired that it looks better shaved, a hairy neck that I keep trimmed, and a beard that requires at least as much time and effort to maintain as I would spend just shaving my entire chin and face. I also shave my scrotum and around the base of my penis - I like the way it feels (I leave the hair above my crotch to avoid the "weird bald spot" that another poster mentioned). My girlfriend has always shaved her legs and armpits. Neither of us have particular gripes or issues with the shaving process itself. During one get-to-know-each-other talk early in the relationship, I expressed an interest in the idea of a woman shaving her pubis. I didn't pressure her, I certainly didn't avoid cunnilingus in the meantime; I just mentioned an interest and citing my own experience with increased sensitivity. Sometime later she asked me to shave her one evening. Well, beyond the enjoyment we got from the foreplay aspects of the act of shaving her, she was delighted with the outcome - aesthetically and in a definite tactile sense. She has chosen to stay shaved. Now, on the other hand, she does NOT look pre-pubescent in any other way - her face does not have what I would call "child-like" features, and she is most definitely curvy, Rubenesque even (to use a term already well-worn in this thread). Her voice is pitched in the alto or maybe even contralto range. Her personality is very adult-like. And I like it that way! It seems to be a common thing to equate a preference for shaved genitals with an interest in pre-pubescent girls (or boys), but that comparison is absolutely not true for me. And judging by the posts on this thread, it isn't true for many other men as well. So there. Reason notwithstanding, the universe continued unabated.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

151.  Like Napoleon...   by Sir Real       at Fri 24 Jan 8:01am score of 1     I, too, like some hair on my partner. I'm particularly intrigued by the hypothesis that armpit hair provides a "broadcast system" for pheremones. I would tend to agree with that (natural scents, the way your partner really smells...) but as always, YMMV. The serpent, meanwhile, Sleeps his meal off in Paradise -Smiling to hear God's querulous calling.- Ted Hughes   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

159.  Not Here   by Chasuk       at Fri 24 Jan 10:28am score of 1.5 interesting     No hairless fetish in this household. I've never liked hairless women - it reminds me too much of prepubescence, and that isn't my thing, thank you. My wife doesn't shave, neither do my teenage daughters. One of my proudest moments as a father was overhearing my eldest daughter in this conversation: Boy: "Why don't you shave your armpits?" She: "Why don't you shave yours?" Boy: "Because I'm a boy." She: "Then I don't shave because I'm a girl." Boy: "That isn't a reason." She: "If it works for you, it works for me. Now why don't you fuck off and leave me alone?" As distasteful as this is to suggest, I personally think that many (most?) men like their women to shave because they like them to look like little girls. A woman who shaves for her man automatically looks younger and more submissive. Depilating yourself for your man is a very submissive act, after all. If you don't beelive me, ask yourself whether you would shave your testicles for your wife or girlfriend, and, if you did, would you admit it? For those who object that cunnilingus is more pleasurable because of shaving, bullshit. And this is speaking from personal experience. I'd also like to suggest that female depilation is largely an American thing. American as in USian. I've spent a lot of years overseas, and discovered MANY women who didn't shave. Anyway, that's my two cents worth. I'll prolly be moderated by someone as obnoxious, but I'll live with myself. It isn't my problem that too many Plastic readers seem to confuse bluntness with being obnoxious... Neopets - the best free game on the Internet.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

168.  Re: Not Here   by veschke       at Fri 24 Jan 1:21pm score of 1   in reply to comment 159     I applaud your daughter's wit. I also think you're oversimplifying the situation when you equate shaving legs and genitals (but nothing else, it seems??) with submission--the very fact that the custom is practiced mainly in the US, where women are not particularly noted for submissiveness, seems to argue against that, as does the apparent growing popularity of the practice among men. Cynicism is the opposite of wisdom.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   171.  Re: Not Here   by Ignition       at Fri 24 Jan 1:49pm score of 1.5 scholarly   in reply to comment 168     I would consider American/USian women to be among the most submissive in the Western world, actually. The competition to look just like everyone else, to be accepted by the dominant male, is extremely prevalent in the US. Supermodels didn't arise out of individualism. Romantic novels aren't populated by arrogant "alpha" males because women detest them. As for the growing popularity of depilation amongst males, among the gay population, maybe, but not largely among the straight population. Even then, it is a sign of submission. Shaving in this country started as a condition of employment. Keeping the employee servile to the employer. You may call this oversimplification, but I have undersimplified, in actual fact.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   195.  Re: Not Here   by veschke       at Mon 27 Jan 1:12pm score of 1   in reply to comment 171     "I would consider American/USian women to be among the most submissive in the Western world, actually." Compared to whom? As stated above, I went years without shaving. The, uh, "dominant male" in my life didn't bat an eye either way. (Nor does his employer enforce his servility by requiring him to shave, might I add.) "The competition to look just like everyone else...." In which case wearing a suit and tie are just as submissive as shaving one's legs (or chin). As is wearing business casual, or casual. As is anything that is not blindingly individualistic behavior. On the other hand, the desire to be part of the group is, as far as I can tell, a pretty basic human characteristic, bucked to some extent by many but entirely ignored by very few. We tend to be a hierarchical lot; if you want to categorize any form of group behavior as "submissive" I guess there is no arguing with it, but one does wonder about the alternative. If you're getting your opinions of what women like or are from romance novels, that would explain my initial impression that we are living on different planets. "Shaving in this country started as a condition of employment. Keeping the employee servile to the employer." Of course, as evidenced by the fact that our ruling classes wear beards. No wait, they don't. Where are you getting this? Shaving has been going in and out of style for thousands of years. Does every last one of those permutations represent a different form of submissive behavior? Cynicism is the opposite of wisdom.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   190.  not very useful post, but I wanted to say   by ifjuly       at Sat 25 Jan 7:45pm score of 1   in reply to comment 159     ...Kudos to you! I wish there were more fathers/husbands like you out there. And if that had been my daughter, I would have beamed with pride too.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

167.  Funny that you mentioned it.   by choodak       at Fri 24 Jan 12:36pm score of 1     Whenever my wife sees me shaving my face she comments on how shitty she thinks that is. She considers herself lucky to not have to shave her face every day but just her legs every day or two. I disagree, but who am I to argue with the boss. Let me also remind women. The trend is not going in favor of fuzzy, but just the opposite. More and more men are finding that they are deemed too hairy to be attractive and are undergoing the same yet more extensive procedures. Imagine, women have legs, pits and the occasional lip to worry about. Many men treat their whole upper torso. Ouch!!! I won't even touch on the subject of men in prison. They shave their whole bodies just like swimmers.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

173.  The evolution will be synthesized   by LordZero       at Fri 24 Jan 3:38pm score of 1     Man is getting progressively taller and less hairy. We should see the body template of an internationally established fashion model as a vision of a much more attractive future. Why would you even want hair in the first place? Like facial hair - what's that all about? "Hi. I'm a man, you can tell because I have a mustache" Uh... thanks for that info. Can you point me to an ATM machine, Mr. Doubly Redundant? Hair is thoroughly regressive, like you're some kind of Neanderthal. I have no doubt whatsoever this is the true reason Homo Sapiens eliminated Neanderthal man - they just weren't attractive enough to make the cut. So to sum up - less hair, less body fat and a tall physique are better than more hair, more body fat and a short physique. View the objective proof here: They're just better than you & I --In the future we will all be robots, this is both inevitable and desirable   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

177.  Re: The evolution will be synthesized   by Advil       at Fri 24 Jan 5:10pm score of 1   in reply to comment 173     You're saying, "Hair is thoroughly regressive, like you're some kind of Neanderthal. I have no doubt whatsoever this is the true reason Homo Sapiens eliminated Neanderthal man - they just weren't attractive enough to make the cut." You're conjecturing here, my homo sapien friend. There's still NO conclusive evidence that we DO NOT decend from those Noble Neanderthals! (As my mother always says, be sure to protect those who are spoken ill of and can't be present to defend themselves.)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

176.  Shaving Will Save the Economy   by Advil       at Fri 24 Jan 4:55pm score of 1     You know what... As ridiculous as this dictated-by-post-Victorian-society shaving fad really is, I realized just now that all this primping and shaving Americans so stupidly & fanatically do, IS ACTUALLY HELPING our SUFFERING ECONOMY! Anyone subscribing to the theory that the fate of the world's economy is largely dependent on the behavior of American consumers, can't help but want to STIMULATE American's shaving tendencies. Imagine if we'd all stopped shaving! What would happen then to all those Gilette shareholders? Think about what would happen to their coveted dividends! In one word, People, keep on slabbing on the shaving cream, and Gilette, Wall Street, George Bush will thank you for it!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

196.  Two Way Street   by cy guy       at Mon 27 Jan 1:26pm score of 1     A new Cambridge study shows that women do prefer hairy men, particularly hairy mesomorphs (athletic builds). In a survey of 700 women hair covering the chest and reach down to the navel was favored over men with hairless chests. The picture attached to the article though is of Pierce Brosnan, who looks like he has to do quite a bit of trimming to get down to only moderately hirsuit. The article also indicates that fashions change and that male modeling agencies have switch from the androgynous look of five years ago to hairy chested models that represent a "real man". "Everybody's plastic, but I love plastic. I want to be plastic."-Andy Warhol   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]