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| | | | | It's My First Amendment Right To Watch Virtual Rape, Dammit! | | | | | found on Christian Science Monitor
written by MAYORBOB, edited by Amanda (Plastic) [ read unedited ]
posted Tue 1 Oct 4:05pm | | | | |
 | "Porn on the internet is, of course, almost a given these days," MAYORBOB wearily admits. "And spam encouraging you to come visit the HOT, WET, BABES at one web site or the other is an irritating reality for many of us. But there is a niche in this porn market that has even some Free Speech advocates worried. That's the rape porn segment of the market and the increasingly prolific spam generated by providers.
The fantasy rape sites have been around for some time, but internet trend watchers say that there has been an explosion in the number of such sites, with content that has eschewed fantasy for the downright violent and graphic. Nationwide, the incidence of rape has dropped over the past few years, though in some cities across the U.S. the trend is up: 10% increase in New York City and a 75% spike in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. There are a number of people out there trying to connect the dots between the rape porn sites and the increase in rape and they are voicing their concerns about where Free Speech ends and incitement to commit a crime begins.
One of the problems facing authorities is, even when they receive a complaint about a site, it is difficult to locate, much less prosecute, the actual owners. There is also the rather firm opposition to tightening the screws on the rape porn providers by organizations like the ACLU which says that what the sites present is protected speech."
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[ more plastic... ] |
| | | | | | | | 2. Failure to link cause and effect | | | | by elforman |  | | | at Tue 1 Oct 4:17pm | score of 1.5 astute | | | | | | |
The one thing I did not see in the article was an actual link between exposure to "fantasy rape" and people committing actual rape. Is there any information that says something such as "35% of convicted rapists were found to have been purveyors of 'fantasy rape' web sites"?
It's not that the mere existence of these sites isn't appaling, but unless there is some hard evidence that shows these sites have even some remote responsibility for the increase in the incidence of rape, there's nothing to do.
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| | | | | | 18. What effect? | | | | by J Random Loser | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 12:49am | score of 1.5 | | in reply to comment 2 | | | | | |
But you see, in the nation as a whole, rape is down. The increases are just local fluctuations. So it would be asinine to claim that this type of porn is increasing the occurrence of rape when rape is, in fact, decreasing. Unless the claim is that users of this type of porn are all living in Cedar Rapids.
The tragedy of this world is that everyone has their reasons.
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| | | | | 23. Yet another trend ... | | | | by Miguel Agullo | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 7:08am | score of 1.5 astute | | in reply to comment 18 | | | | | |
Google rape porn and the first 5 hits are about how bad rape pron is. Only after the entry for the article linked in the writeup, we get the first rape porn link. After that, porn sites alternate with articles decrying it. Additionally, "porn" gets 16,500,000 hits. Rape porn "only" gets 215,000.
My veredict: this is blown WAY out of proportion. I get my fair share of porn spam (I wonder why, BTW) and have never seen rape porn spam.
In fact, up until I read this article, I didn't know there was a category with that name. I was still stuck with the BDSM classification. Call me a classic.
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| | | | | 53. Re: Yet another trend ... | | | | by J Random Loser | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 1:45pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 23 | | | | | |
Also, many of the porn sites that show up in the search may have nothing to do with rape. A common trick is to include a string of semi-random, porn related words at the bottom of a page in a really small font, or one that blends in with the background. That way they get the search engine to hit on them for just about anything even slightly porn related (and somtimes things that are totally unrelated). So yes, this does seem blown out of proportion.
The tragedy of this world is that everyone has their reasons.
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| | | | | 68. Re: Failure to link cause and effect | | | | by pfoxi | | | | at Thu 3 Oct 2:19am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 2 | | | | | |
Even that wouldn't work because it doesn't establish causality. If say 90% of all rapist looked at rape porn you still couldn't say the porn caused the rape. They may still have done it if the porn hadn't existed. And you don't know there aren't a few people out there who would go out raping, but get their fix from porn so don't do it.
The only reliable way to establish causality is to take two large, diverse and equivalent sections of the world, measure the rape level today, then without changing anything, take away internet rape porn from one and see what happens to the rate of rape. If it goes down in the no-porn area then hot damn. Ban the evil shit. If it goes up in the no-porn area then hot damn. Rape porn for everyone.
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| | | | | | 3. Movies? | | | | by random1 |  | | | at Tue 1 Oct 5:02pm | score of 2 interesting | | | | | | |
If one is opposed to the "rape porn" segment(i.e. think it should be illegal), does that apply to movies as well? There have certainly been legitimage movies with graphic, disturbing rape scenes, and there are probably people who get off watching said scenes, so where would we draw the line? Subjective judgment of artistic value? As always, this would be more complicated than it seems at first glance.
Unless some causal link between rape porn and actual rape can be shown, I think this is a non-issue.
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| | | | | | 38. Don't you think... | | | | by slickhipster | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 9:53am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 3 | | | | | |
porn does chill you out to the subject matter?
I don't believe in content-based restrictions on porn, but just because it shouldn't be illegal doesn't mean it's wonderful and good.
I do think porn, through regular, satisfying interaction, allows you to get comfortable with sexual concepts, but when the subject matter is rape or children, that's really not such a good idea.
I AM big, it's the cubicles that got small
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| | | | | 76. Re: Movies? | | | | by 4thborn | | | | at Fri 4 Oct 1:45pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 3 | | | | | |
i think that it can be a non-issue, but in many instances (do not read "all instances") that this could lead to other rapes. whether or not this will ever be proven, that is a different story. i do agree, though, that there have been some brutal rape scenes in movies, but for the most part they have been implied, not actually shown what is happening.
"Opinions were like kittens, I was giving them away" - Modest Mouse
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| | | | | | 4. Connecting the Dots... | | | | by Thalia | | | | at Tue 1 Oct 5:03pm | score of 2.5 succinct | | | | | | |
The story, by the Christian Science Monitor, fails to even make the assertion that there is a link between the porn and actual rape.
And give me a break, their example of poor children stumbling onto the site is some 15-year old who claims he went to "real-rape.com" because he thought they'd fight against rape? Now that sounds like an excuse he tried out on Mom first after she caught him cruising an inappropriate web site.
As always, it's the parents' responsibility to check their children's web (and TV) viewing habits. Kids shouldn't go to these sites. BUT, that doesn't make censorship OK.
Thalia
Judeo-Christianity: just like regular Christianity, only insincerely 5% more inclusive! -- MC Nally
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| | | | | | 8. Re: Connecting the Dots... | | | | by dylanr | | | | at Tue 1 Oct 6:54pm | score of 2 informative | | in reply to comment 4 | | | | | |
15-year old who claims he went to "real-rape.com" because he thought they'd fight against rape?
Yeah, it sounds a bit fishy... until you recall that Real Rape also happens to be the name of Susan Estrich's ground-breaking book on acquaintance rape.
In theory there should be no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there usually is.
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| | | | | 13. Re: Connecting the Dots... | | | | by musiquestar | | | | at Tue 1 Oct 9:41pm | score of 1.5 helpful | | in reply to comment 4 | | | | | |
Kind of what our high school computer teacher told us:
First time you go to www.whitehouse.com, I'll forgive you.
Second time, you're gonna get yelled at.
(If anyone's a bit dense, it's a porn site, that's why there's no href... although www.whitehouse.org is great satire.)
She really could yell. We got to hear it nice and clearly though the doors of her office when somebody did just that. We were the only class of kids in the district who basically didn't have filters, which was nice, but the administration kept a running list of anyone who went to a "monitored" site... if you hit it more than a reasonable accidental number of times, you got called in. I think that's a better solution to censorship, but it requires some effort.
Your fantasies are unlikely, but beautiful.
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| | | | | 34. Re: Connecting the Dots... | | | | by eduardo | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 9:31am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 13 | | | | | |
although www.whitehouse.org is great satire
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I don't get it.
J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.
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| | | | | | | 6. Rape Porn Sucks... | | | | by stet | | | | at Tue 1 Oct 5:11pm | score of 2 informative | | | | | | |
...but we already new that. There are, however, a couple of things to consider; the first of which is the Harmless Fantasy aspect of the situation, and the second would be my own, informal (heh) analysis of trends in pornography.
The Harmless Fantasy link points to the Savage Love column written by Dan Savage who, I believe, lacks any sort of formal credentials. The column in question discusses a man's discomfort with his wife's predeliction for rape-fantasy porn and her stated desire to enact said fantasy. Good for her, I reckon.
Like many of us, I have "accidentally" run across my share of pornography. I am also inclined toward the study of history. Ergo: Vintage porn! (I swear there's something about 1900-1920 photography that just makes everybody look better.) Compared to mainstream contemporary pornography, the overtones of--maybe not quite rape--but coercion were much more pronounced than in any contemporary films/magazines I've run across. I think we're probably doing pretty well for a nation as sexually hung-up as we are.
As for rape-porn SPAM, this should never happen. I recommend setting up your mail client to either bounce all HTML mail or render it as text, which will prevent the images from appearing, at least.
As far as free speech issues go, I can't see any reason why fictional portrayals of rape would be illegal. Of course, I also can't see any reason why digital portrayals of child pornography should be illegal either.
And I shudder to think what my favorite words will look like after this post.
"All of the juice had been sucked out/ Before Mel Bay taught us children to play"
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| | | | | | 7. Follow the money. | | | | by rough ashler | | | | at Tue 1 Oct 6:07pm | score of 1.5 astute | | | | | | |
One of the problems facing authorities is, even when they receive a complaint about a site, it is difficult to locate, much less prosecute, the actual owners.
What about the simple idea of seeing WHO is collecting the money for access? Or who is paying for the site where the download is happening from?
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| | | | | | 9. Explosion of numbers simply economy of scale? | | | | by shagoth | | | | at Tue 1 Oct 7:06pm | score of 1.5 interesting | | | | | | |
Seriously, does the rise in the number of rape porn sites merely represent the economics of recycling content from other sites or does it really represent an increase in the numbers of porn consumers willing to pay for such content. When these things get talked about the real stats always seem kind of left out.
Furthermore, there has long been an association of violent crime and poverty/declining economic conditions. Now, we are in a declining economic cycle so some level of increase in violent crime is to be expected as the disenfranchised reach rock bottom and act out. I do wonder if rape as a crime of violence and power isn't one of the last to fall when times are good and first to rebound when times are bad.
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| | | | | | 41. Joe Bag the Rag Man | | | | by Atlasshrugged00 | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 10:17am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 9 | | | | | |
I am guessing that the people living in their cars aren't making regular trips on the information superhighway.
Hmm, no computers, no electricity = no rape porn.
Which extends me to this thought...
I believe we should set up special alcoves in all homeless shelters so that the homeless have equal (private!) access to rape porn!
Low income housing should come with T1 lines!
This is all as smart as Bill Clinton's previous efforts to make sure the Third World has internet access. Shouldn't they have the right to bid on ebay too?!
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| | | | | | 10. Err on the Side of... | | | | by Anonymouse Savant | | | | at Tue 1 Oct 8:49pm | score of 2 compelling | | | | | | |
To me, that's the question. Which side of the equation is it better to err on?
Is it enough to add disclaimers, "no actual rape occurred - these are simulated events," "rape is a terrible crime and carries severe penalties," "always practice safe and consensual sex and set and respect 'safe' words if engaged in extreme practices," etc.?
It's a terrible fact that rape occurs.
It's also a truism that eventually some sicko will indeed admit a passion for these sites prior to his conviction for rape or murder or both.
Does that justify shutting down sites or tracking visitors?
I personally conclude the answer is still NO. We've got to err on the side of protecting speech and even lifestyle alternatives that offend us lest our personal choices disappear in the next round. Just like momma taught me, you've got to take personal responsibility for your own actions and cut others a whole lot of slack so long as they're not hurting you or the ones you love.
Call me back when there's a meaningful correlation, but until then, slap a disclaimer on the site and change the channel if you don't like the show.
Little girls, like butterflies, need no excuses. (R. Heinlein)
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| | | | | | 40. Re: Err on the Side of... | | | | by swalve | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 10:14am | score of 1.5 compelling | | in reply to comment 10 | | | | | |
I was going to start a whole thread on this (I arrogantly said, assuming people would actually reply), but your post is a great lead in.
Yeah, there will be some guy out there who will blame porn for his crime. I'm sure it has happened already. "I looked at the porn and then I had to go rape the coed. It wasn't my fault." What's that sound like? That's right, some kid blaming someone (anyone) else for their bad decisions. People who do not have a well-developed sense of responsibility (almost) always blame someone or something else for their misdeed. I think this is a similar thing.
Kinda like the teenagers are now giving blowjobs simply because Clinton received one. What the Clinton detractors (playa haters?) don't know is the rise of teen BJs was a trend before any of that came (no pun intended) to light.
Dad catches daughter giving boyfriend a BJ. Daughter whines "But daaaaaaad, the president did it!" Dad, assured that his daughter is only the victim of liberals' bad example, calls Limbaugh and they have a rousing session of bashing.
Point being- if some guy is going to go out hurting people, chances are not much is going to change that. For those who are on a fine line, perhaps porn pushes them to one side or another. But I'd bet (ultimately unproveable) that for every one guy that watches rape porn and goes out rapin', there's a hundred that have a nice J/O and go to sleep.
DISCLAIMER: I don't watch rape porn, I don't like it and I thinks it's disturbing.
"If silence is golden, you couldn't raise a dime!"
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| | | | | | 11. Classic First Amdendment Debate | | | | by dewdrops | | | | at Tue 1 Oct 9:03pm | score of 1.5 astute | | | | | | |
While many might find the types of movies described here to be truly vile, I side with the ACLU on this one. Banning movies which depict rape would be a terrible loss of freedom. Just think about it: no more American History X, no more Deliverance and no more of IMDB's 2nd highest rated movie of all time, Shawshank Redemption. Free speech is all about allowing someone to say or create something one finds completely abhorrent.
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| | | | | | 12. Ob-anti-Outlook Rant | | | | by Hungry 4 Bandwidth | | | | at Tue 1 Oct 9:27pm | score of 1.5 astute | | | | | | |
This is yet another reason to dump Outlook and get yourself a nice, text-based e-mail client.
If you do this, HTML e-mail will look like gibberish. You can just dump it (most of it is spam anyway) into your "Spam" folder and forward it to Spamcop once you've verified that it is spam.
Does this .sig make my butt look big?
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| | | | | | | 15. It's legal | | | | by Anonymous Idiot |  | | | at Tue 1 Oct 11:30pm | score of 0.5 informative | | | | | | |
As an adult webmaster, I don't see a problem with it, but I can't speak for all of us.
It's legal, and it's a very popular niche/fetish... which I think brings up more questions about the people who are going to the websites than the people who are running them.
I'm making ~11,000 USD/month from extremely bland movies and galleries, so I can't even imagine the kind of money these guys are bringing in, considering how concentrated their traffic/audience must be.
Rape is a sick thing, but I'm guessing virtual-rape hurts virtually-nobody. Cartoons don't rape people, people rape people. Heh.
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| | | | | | | 19. How depressing! | | | | by geekybob | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 5:43am | score of 1 | | | | | | |
I'm not sure which is worse: that there are people who enjoy this awful shit, or that I must agree with the other postings that say we shouldn't-- and can't-- make it illegal.
If a woman fantasizes about being raped, that's one thing. (Her mental image is probably a somewhat sanitized version, without the kind of violence that rape usually includes... but if not, that's OK too). She's not wanting to do violence to someone else.
Guys who are turned on by the idea of forcibly raping a woman, IMHO, are some sick fucks. However, if all they do is think about it, then I guess we can't do much about that.
I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.
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| | | | | | 24. Re: How depressing! | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 7:09am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 19 | | | | | |
A typical woman probably fantasizes about rape as a way of escaping responsibility (for morality and emotional consequences) for having sex with someone she is slightly conflicted about wanting to have sex with. Fantasizing about raping someone else is about having power over a generalized other. It is a very different story, one which is by its nature violent. For this reason, I believe there is a link between violent pornography and rape. It will be interesting to see if the studies being conducted bear that out (if they are well designed).
(The article cites an increased incidence of rape in Pittsburgh. I happen to live in pgh. For the record, that probably reflects a single serial rapist and, maybe, copycats.)
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | 26. Re: How depressing! | | | | by mischief | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 8:10am | score of 1 brilliant | | in reply to comment 24 | | | | | |
Replace "A typical woman probably fantasizes" with "Some women may fantasize". Further, add the phrase "For some," before "Fantasizing about raping someone else is about having power".
I have known two women who had powerful rape fantasies and the underlying reasons had nothing to do with conflicted feelings. Also, while the power aspect may underlie some men's fantasies, saying that is true of all men is a groundless overgeneralization.
"And then... and then... and then...", and then the man who stuttered died, his last words an echo of his life
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| | | | | 29. Re: How depressing! | | | | by ignoblus | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 8:44am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 27 | | | | | |
Fair enough. I was generalizing.
I don't believe that pornography in general is oppressive for women, just violent porn, in particular. The lack of support for the link, however, is more the result of poor methodology. In particular, studies have been biased to show a link, thereby removing any possibility of actually proving one.
It never was that simple, and it still isn't.
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| | | | | | 33. Freedom is not Morality | | | | by mrwarmth | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 9:27am | score of 2 intriguing | | | | | | |
A lot of the discussion of this topic illustrates the fact that Americans are no longer capable of having a moral argument. That is because we think all arguments about morality have to be arguments about someone's right to do something, and someone else's right to prevent you from doing something. America is so hung up on rights as the only way to discuss our differences, that we have thought (?) ourselves into a cul de sac. If there's no way to prevent someone from doing something, this means, in some way, that we're saying it's right. This is ridiculous, and also dangerous. If rights has become our only real moral vocabulary, then repression of rights becomes the only possible remedy for moral disagreements.
Whether people have a "right" to watch virtual rape porn is an irrelevancy and a distraction. Of course they do. Duh. The real issue is whether it is morally right for them to do so.
As feminism becomes more and more moralistic, increasingly as well its appeal to the vocabulary of rights grows ever more useless and, paradoxically, strident. This fixation on rights actually robs modern feminism of the ability to raise important issues like rape porn in a meaningful fashion.
-Niall
Where is Ratko Mladic?
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| | | | | | 36. Re: Freedom is not Morality | | | | by alaffin | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 9:42am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 33 | | | | | |
Given that what is "morally right" is completely subjective and fluid discussions of morality tend not to be terribly productive.
Is it morally right for you to judge another person who is engaging in a behavior that in no way impacts you or anyone else? I would argue that it is not. Of course that's MY morals speaking and not yours and so we could run in circles all day and never get anywhere.
Bottom line morals are a personal thing. If I disagree with yours then I simply don't associate with you.
satire
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| | | | | 39. Re: Freedom is not Morality | | | | by mrwarmth | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 9:59am | score of 1 brilliant | | in reply to comment 36 | | | | | |
Regardless of how supposedly subjective moral reasoning is - and I don't believe it is any more subjective than discussions of rights - the fact remains that opponents of rape porn are in fact making a moral distinction and a moral argument. They are just cloaking it in the language of rights. To adopt your position, this is even worse than just making a moral argument, because you are cloaking a subjective moral stance in pseudo-objective language.
Of course, the final irony is that you yourself end your post by making a moral argument, namely, that it is wrong for someone to morally judge another's behavior if it doesn't "impact" you. That's a moral argument, my friend, and, according to your definition, is hopelessly subjective and irrelevant.
-Niall
Where is Ratko Mladic?
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| | | | | 46. Re: Freedom is not Morality | | | | by alaffin | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 10:42am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 39 | | | | | |
It's amazing how you can just drip with condescention like that. Do you practice a whole lot or is it just a gift?
My point was that I have a moral position that you may or may not agree with and I stated that position. I don't see any point to getting into an argument about it because, as I said, those arguments tend to lead nowhere.
Rights are codified. There's a document that spells them out pretty clearly. I have to right to say, read, or look at damn near whatever I please. That, as you pointed out in your original post, isn't really open to debate.
As a matter of fact, while I may feel that it is morally wrong to judge someone else's behavior I would absolutely agree that you have every right to do so as long as you limit yourself to talking about it.
If you feel that something is morally wrong you have the right to say so and I have the right to disagree. As it turns out there is no way to categorically say which one of us is correct until the actions in question cross over the line of harming another person.
satire
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| | | | | 48. Re: Freedom is not Morality | | | | by mrwarmth | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 10:50am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 46 | | | | | |
The problem with your argument is that it ignores the fact that moral standards are one of the key arbiters used to interpret the meaning of our "codified" rights. This is quite clear in discussions over, say, the death penalty. This is entirely a discussion about morality. Are you saying that death penalty opponents should just shut up and stop trying to change the law? That is nonsensical.
You say rights are codified - how does this make them more objective? Morality is also codified - so how come you think it's subjective?
Your whole argument rests on the entirely subjective stipulation that discussions of moral differences cannot be resolved. Yet you have offered no objective proof of this. Moreover, your argument as stated entails the demonstrably false claim that disagreements about rights are in fact rationally settleable in a way that disagreements about morality are not. Then how do you explain the Right to Life movement?
Please provide an argument that proves your contentions, otherwise I have to consider this just one more piece of subjectivity from you.
-Niall
Where is Ratko Mladic?
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| | | | | 49. Re: Freedom is not Morality | | | | by alaffin | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 10:58am | score of 1 nuanced | | in reply to comment 48 | | | | | |
Well, taking your specific example, there is certainly a person being effected pretty directly by the death penalty isn't there?
And seeing as my basic argument is that one really can't nail down an absolute on a subjective matter, well, you do realize that you're asking me to categorically prove something that I've already admitted was my personal opinion right?
Discussion of opinions is not a waste of time. Staking absolute moral positions and expecting others to argue with you about them is. It can be an entertaining waste of time but it still isn't going to produce much of anything.
I would ask you, can you give me an argument that absolutely refutes my position?
satire
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| | | | | 37. legal rights vs. moral ones | | | | by coquito | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 9:42am | score of 1.5 astute | | in reply to comment 33 | | | | | |
that was a great post. i'm not sure i agree totally, but it's a hell of a good argument, imo.
your second paragraph kinda points out the dividing line though, there is a difference between a "legal right" (the ability to do something) and a "moral right" (whether or not you should). the thing is, it's a lot easier to deliniate the former (as you've shown).
the question of a moral right is a good one, but more difficult. it almost seems like it ultimately doesn't matter because we'll all have different moral opinions, even after long bouts of argument, but the legal right will be the same for all of us (and will have repercussions affecting other legal rights...). so, in a way, we all have more at stake in that case.
i do think arguing the moral correctness of rape porn is a good thing, though. how we should act is important to think about, always. it's just that, when it comes to deciding what is allowed, the legal right ends up being the more pressing one to debate. the moral one ends up more as a personal matter. then again, i think your point is that maybe it should be more of a public one. but we could debate that too...
so... shall we debate the morality of rape porn? let's say i don't see what makes it morally wrong. someone wanna start enlightening me?
and p.s. -- can we use different words for "right" and "correct"? it'd make the whole discussion easier.
In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods -- learned Hindu scholar
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| | | | | 50. Re: Freedom is not Morality | | | | by verb | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 11:14am | score of 1.5 interesting | | in reply to comment 33 | | | | | |
This is, IMO, one of the true failures of trendoid postmodernism.
Even those who believe that there is an absolute, unyielding standard of right and wrong must admit that our perception and understanding of that standard is subjective.
Everyone needs a moral framework, though, and agreeing on a baseline that we can all share is one of the first steps in maintaining a healthy society. To say that people disagree is hardly an excuse for disregarding morality as a concept. The very notion of 'rights' emerges from a moral framework of human equality.
I may have the right to cheat on my wife, legally, but it does not make it morally correct. A malicious employer may have the right to fire an employee who didn't pull through in the big company softball game, but it does not make it morally right. I have the right to lie to someone I love, but that does not make it morally 'right.'
The tricky part comes when individuals try to bring 'rights' and 'rightness' into sync with each other, legally. This is quite dangerous IMO, and should be avoided in all but the most extreme cases. It does not mean, however, that we should toss out 'moral rightness' from discussions of these issues. We can defend someone's legal right to do something morally wrong without contradiction.
--the verb
"During a nuclear incident, it is important to avoid radioactive material, if possible." -- Dept. of Homeland Security
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| | | | | | 47. Fantasy Play is Fun | | | | by wicked_sprite | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 10:46am | score of 2 intriguing | | | | | | |
This argument seems to fall into the same camp as the "violent video games make violent people" argument.
I'm a big fan of the comic series "Johnny the Homicidal Maniac". Stick with me folks, this is relevant I promise. For those not familiar with it, it's name is quite fitting. No need to say more. It's creator is a man named Jhonan Vasquez. (which sounds like a porn name, see the relevance! JK) He appeared for signings at this years Comic Con in San Diego, which I attended. Yes, my geek points are mounting, I know. Anyway, I found him to be very articulate, intelligent, and thoughtful. Also, despite having bright red hair and a rail-thin physique, quite normal. I was not surprised.
I, however, was largely alone in this reaction. Most fans were huddled in small clusters around the signing tables discussing how shocked they were that Jhonan wasn't some sort of flesh-eating, ax-wielding psychotic wishing nothing more than the destruction of the world. It didn't occur to them that the books are just a darkly humorous satire at the things in life that drive us all a little crazy. The irony is that, with that mentality, Jhonan himself may have been sitting begind the signing table shaking nervously with Sharpie in hand thinking "Shit, what kind of sick fucks am I going to meet that actually *liked" this stuff!"
Anyway, I'm not a homicidal maniac myself, but I whenever I read the comics and Johnny disembowls that annoying hippie chick pushing "Save the Earth" phamplets in my face I get a little belly giggle outta it. I'm also not supportive of rape, but the fantasy, fantasy mind you people, of a hot large-membered man forcing me to have multiple screaming orgasms isn't all that bad either.
The reality of violence and the fantasy of violence are not the same. All together with the religious conservatives this time.. "The reality of... "
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| | | | | | | 55. The future of computer animation | | | | by Lloyd Danforth | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 2:11pm | score of 1.5 interesting | | | | | | |
What with the realism of computer animation there will be all sorts of things produced in the future that many of us cringe to think of watching.
There will be depictions of men and women being raped, though in reality no one will actually be hurt, that 99.99999% of us will never watch.
There will be depictions of children and adults engaging in sexual acts, with no actual children being involved, that 99.999% of us willnever watch.
There will be depictions of people being: beaten, beheaded,skinned, drawn and
quartered,gutted,killed, etc., where no real people are involved, that I'll sure as Hell never
watch!
The important thing here is that no real human beings are being harmed!
We have laws against harming real people in the above stated ways to protect people, not to keep the .0000001% perverts and sadists in our society from getting their jollies watching these activities!
Any attempt at making these computer animated depictions illegal will only result in a Black Market for them and more Police in our lives!
Lloyd Danforth
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| | | | | | 56. Life Imitates Porn | | | | by TargetDemographic | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 2:28pm | score of 2 funny | | | | | | |
Yes, it sure does. My GOD people, how can you argue that it doesn't?
Back in the day when I used to deliver pizzas, I couldn't ever get through a single shift without delivering a pie to some utterly stacked bored housewife in a lace teddy whose husband was out of town. Of course, one thing would always lead to another and I would always be late with the rest of my deliveries.
And don't even get me started on that fatback disco funk music that followed me everywhere I went.
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| | | | | | | 57. This May Lose Me Some Friends Here... | | | | by Whelp | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 2:58pm | score of 1.5 intriguing | | | | | | |
But I'll admit it; I've watched some of the stuff, and I don't feel at all bad about it. I guess that I must be one of the "Sickfucks" that was mentioned earlier in the thread for feeling this way, but I'm of the opinion that what goes on between consenting adults is the business of those consenting adults. The sites that we're talking about here aren't showing people being raped, they're showing people pretending to be raped, and therein lies the difference.
Let's say that my girlfriend and I decide to get out some 'cuffs at bedtime, and one of us ends up chained to the bed and madly sexed. Is this a bad thing? It certainly would be if either of us hadn't consented to it ahead of time, but since we're both adults who are into that sort of thing, where's the harm? And if we decide to put it on the internet for someone to get their jollies to, what business is that of anyone else?
I don't regularly frequent these sites (in fact, I've been to them a total of twice), but I don't have any trouble with people who do. Different strokes for different folks (as they say). Some days, that's what I want to see. Some days, I want to see a fat guy sucking off a donkey. Some days, I want to see someone fit a two-liter bottle up their ass. Some days, I love watching people eat feces. Does that make me a "Sickfuck"? Probably. Does that make me morally wrong? I don't think so, but opinions may vary.
Man, it's great to work in a place where two-handed fisting is considered "work-safe" internet viewing material.
Do you want the mustache on, or off? Too bad!
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| | | | | | 59. Re: This May Lose Me Some Friends Here... | | | | by cpmku | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 3:18pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 57 | | | | | |
While I'm glad "Sickfuck" has caught on so well here, I'd like to clarify something.
First, I don't think (and never said) having a rape fantasy is wrong. If that's how you get your jollies, great, I don't care. And if you can find a consenting adult to play out the rape fantasy, even better.
What worries me are the sickfucks who are into actual rape - you know, having sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you - visiting these sites. It just brings their fantasy a little closer to reality because it makes it legitimate. I think that's the problem with these sites. That hadn't been mentioned and I wanted to bring it up with my Sickfuck comments. Sorry to offend...
But, yes, you are one sick fuck...:)
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| | | | | 60. Since We're Not To The "Clarifying" Part... | | | | by Whelp | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 3:28pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 59 | | | | | |
I'd like to take this opportunity to mention something that I hadn't said in my original post, because I think that it should be obvious (but I'll mention it now, because there's no real reason to risk someone misunderstanding me)... I am as opposed to actual rape as a person can reasonably be expected to be. I see it as a terrible crime, and feel that, while we should give the perpetrators of this crime treatment, we should also give them lengthy incarceration.
But, yes, you are one sick fuck...:)
Neat! Feel free to join the "Sickfuck" club! We have tee shirts, and badges, and a monthly newsletter! Once a year we get together for the annual Sickfuck BBQ (despite the protests of some of our members, children are not welcome at this event). It's a great way to meet new and interesting people.
Do you want the mustache on, or off? Too bad!
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| | | | | 65. Re: This May Lose Me Some Friends Here... | | | | by morphinex | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 6:45pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 57 | | | | | |
You assert that rape porn websites are showing people pretending to be raped, but I'm not so sure about this. The porn industry as a whole argues that what it is showing is real, that she is liking it, that what you are watching is real -- real sex, real girls, and so on. The fantasy doesn't seem to work unless he or she is liking it, and so the porn industry is fairly adamant about telling us that what we are watching is real real real.
So when we watch rape porn, we have to ask ourselves what is really happening, and why it is appealing. Is the appeal of rape porn the good acting, as it might be with a real film, or is the appeal of rape porn the rape itself? The answer is obvious. Since the appeal is the actual rape, and since the porn industry insists that what it shows is real, we have to raise some serious questions, or the porn industry has to give.
If it is real, then there is real rape going on. Anyone who rapes another person is committing a crime. Furthermore, the courts should not allow any video made during that rape to see the light of day (but we all know what really happens -- see Deepthroat). If what is going on in those rape porn movies is not real, they kind of lose their appeal.
So, I don't really know. Is that rape porn really just someone acting?
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| | | | | | 62. It Looks Like We're Skirting the Solution | | | | by poetofadean | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 4:42pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
I think the solution here is not to ban rape porn, or any other type of fantasy/fetish porn that some WASPs might find offensive, but more to ensure that minors cannot access the sites, which oughta. Oh, and simply having a 'If you're under 18, please EXIT now' link isn't enough. All these sites with inappropriate material for minors should come up with some preventative measures to ensure kids aren't looking at this kind of stuff if they aren't supposed to.
and sure, they can look at porn...its just another part of growing up, and i'm serious. it's a battle everyone's gotta fight sometime (or it was for me).
And if you live out one of your fantasies at someone else's expense, it is your fault, because you've just lost your self-restraint, moral inhibition, sanity, reason, whatever you want to call that thing that tells us not to do something when it is unacceptable to society.
you can keep the sites, just make sure that if kids see 'em, its because their parents are ready for them to grow up just a little bit more.
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| | | | | | 67. Re: It Looks Like We're Skirting the Solution | | | | by TheColdKing | | | | at Wed 2 Oct 11:24pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 62 | | | | | |
Ah-ha, so you are one of those bothersome busybodies who made (and continue to make) what should have been the easy process of getting my regular fix of free online porn so frustatingly difficult when I was still a teenager a few years ago ! Grrr, well , let me tell you that despite your best efforts , I was still able to get some , and as lots of other young people like me become more and more technologically-savvy (as the saying goes " A teenager with too much free time on his hands can do anything " :) ), we're going to get more and more bwahahahahahahahahahaha. I'll admit that we do lose a lot of battles , but you shall never really win the war ! And so the eternal struggle continues...
TRUST NO ONE;
USE EVERYONE
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| | | | | 77. Re: It Looks Like We're Skirting the Solution | | | | by poetofadean | | | | at Fri 11 Oct 4:07pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 67 | | | | | |
well, friend i never said it was a practical solution, but i'm sure plenty of parents wish it was. as for being a teenager, well...yeah. and, while it is true that teens will find a way (i should know, still being one) to get whatever they will, i imagine this can only be helped as more and more authoritative adults keep up with the technology as it comes out. and yes, while it does sometimes frustrate me that what i'm doing is being restricted by adults who might not know what a dos prompt is/was (my teacher thought i was hacking into my grades! hacking!!!), i do recognize that some things should actually be monitored and controlled. However, allow me to go back a little from what i said. Perhaps government controls/regulations are not necessary. Let's just put all the responsibility on the parent(s), to monitor and restrict, as they see fit, what their children see.
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| | | | | 78. Re: It Looks Like We're Skirting the Solution | | | | by poetofadean | | | | at Fri 11 Oct 4:13pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 73 | | | | | |
I agree that parents should shoulder a majority (or all) of the responsibility for what their children see (however hypocritical that may seem to you--i've thought and changed my opinion on who should monitor what kids can see), although the government could enact methods which would not require you to pay in order to see pornography on the internet. Everyone has a social security number, don't they? it could just be that simple. and i do not think that what happens during rape is 'breeding', but that's just me.
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