|
|  | | | | 'Killer-Hugging Canadians' | | | | | found on: Canadian Coalition Against the Death Penalty
written by slam porpoise, edited by Tim (Plastic) [ read unedited ]
posted Sun 21 Jul 2:59pm | | | | |
 | slam porpoise writes "In 1977 Amos King stabbed Natalie Brady in Tarpon Springs, Fla. Today he sits on death row and, with the help of some canadians, is spending his time appealing his case - in the court of public opinion. Amos has his own web site, and one hosted by the Canadian Coalition Against the Death Penalty, and guess what - he didn't do it. He is the 'victim of a frame-up'. Amos isn't the only innocent person getting help from killer-hugging bedwetters living to the north. There are even some "Americans" giving murderers a chance to reach out to the families of their victims and say hello. The only thing I can't figure out is how much the Canadians take from the legal defense funds to maintain the web sites."
| |
[ more plastic... ] |
| | | | | | | 1. My Justification
| | | | by mischief |  | | | at Sun 21 Jul 2:33pm | score of 0.5 | | | | | | |
This is one of those stories that just begs to be posted 'as is' because the potential for discussion has so many tangents. Have fun!
"And then... and then... and then...", and then the man who stuttered died, his last words an echo of his life
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 4. Re: My Justification
| | | | by Tessera |  | | | at Sun 21 Jul 3:55pm | score of 3 compelling | | in reply to comment 1 | | | | | |
Its rating was 2/14. Not one good word was said about it in the subQ. And you know what? There's a reason for that.
If I submit a racist writeup, should it get accepted "as-is" because so many people will want to comment on my racism? There's a reason for the subQ - so we can weed out the truly unworthy submissions. I don't understand why sometimes all that gets thrown away. This isn't a "so bad it's good situation". This is a "so bad it shouldn't be posted, but was" situation. And I really don't know why.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 7. legitimacy of the story
| | | | by davidpalter |  | | | at Sun 21 Jul 4:32pm | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 4 | | | | | |
The story as posted is admittedly obnoxious, because of the phrase "killer hugging bed-wetters living to the north". Regardless of what you may think about the death penalty, it should be possible to discuss the issue (or any issue) without insulting the people who disagree with you. Aside from that, it is of interest that the Canadian Coalition Against the Death Penalty has taken such an active role in opposing the execution of prisoners in the US, and it raises questions not only of whether there is indeed anyone who should be executed, but also of whether Canadians should be involved in US death penalty cases. In defense of the latter, I might point out that Americans have often felt that it was appropriate for them to speak out against what they perceived to be human rights abuses in other countries, whether it was the former Apartheit regime of South Africa, the Tienanmen Square massacre in China, etc. etc., and the US does not hesitate to go to war to protect human rights either, as recently was done to protect Kosovo from Serbia (the current war in Afghanistan is a different matter, since the US was actually attacked, & hence is not fighting on behalf of other people's human rights, but on behalf of its own rights).
Of course it is not surprising that so many people on death row now proclaim themselves to be innocent. What have they got to lose? In general, people who commit murder are also willing to lie about it. No big surprise there. However, some of them may actually be innocent. There have been a number of cases here in Canada where people have been convicted of murder, but subsequently exonerated by DNA testing and other evidence which has been discovered. So we know that false convictions do sometimes occur. And at least in Canada, since people don't get executed, when convictions are overturned, prisoners can be released. So there is something to be said for that approach.
However, I do believe that there are cases in which the death penalty is appropriate (as I have argued on Plastic before). Some people are clearly very dangerous to society even when they are in prison (people do get murdered in prison, and prisoners do escape from prison, or get paroled out of prison, & commit more murders - repeatedly, in some cases) and those dangerous people should be executed. I am in favor of a cautious death penalty; execute the most dangerous criminals, but be very careful not to make a mistake & execute the innocent. And I say this as a Canadian, I might add. Canada, like the US, contains a diversity of political opinion. We are not all opposed to the death penalty. --dp
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | | 5. So many activists, so few causes
| | | | by ignatiusreilly |  | | | at Sun 21 Jul 3:57pm | score of 1.5 funny | | | | | | |
So: Canada doesn't have the death penalty (as of 1976), but is nonetheless home to annoying anti-capital punishment activists. These poor souls have nowhere to go with their issue unless they agitate on behalf of convicted criminals in other countries.
Something needs to be done here.
A call to all Americans: organize now and sound the call for the reinstatement of Canada's death penalty! End Canada's exportation of limp-wristed activism! Let them pester their own!
Our right to sovereign self-determination depends on it.
Give me reincarnation, or give me death.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 62. Re: So many activists, so few causes
| | | | by logbass | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 6:50am | score of 1.5 brilliant | | in reply to comment 9 | | | | | |
Is that permission? If the US "stops meddling" wil we never have to hear again that fill-in-the blank tragedy is our problem and as the only remaining superpower we have to do something about it?
Who's got the kibble? - Bad Lieutenant: POCNO
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 39. Re: So many activists, so few causes
| | | | by Sodomized Peanut | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 12:09am | score of 1.5 brilliant | | in reply to comment 5 | | | | | |
It's an interesting thing, that many americans do not get the idea of constructive criticism. I think the use of that ludicrous term "Anti-American" highlights this best.
Another thing I've noticed is their dogmatic way of life. They're never willing to re-evaluate their beliefs, instead they choose a particular side (Republican, Democrat, Black, White) on an issue and insist on staying there.
The rest of the world operates on a different value system, and they're only trying to help.
Also, please don't presume your superiority. It's really fricking pretentious. It's mind-boggling that you can even think that your system is objectively better than the rest of the world combined, even when all those people are saying otherwise...
Our right to sovereign self-determination depends on it.
Another thing. Don't mention rights. Just because it's written on a piece of paper buried in the ground does not mean it's a right.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 52. Re: So many activists, so few causes
| | | | by ignatiusreilly | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 4:43am | score of 1.5 astute | | in reply to comment 39 | | | | | |
Another thing I've noticed is their dogmatic way of life. They're never willing to re-evaluate their beliefs
It's heartening to see that Americans have not yet cornered the market on dogmatic pronouncements.
BTW: The world (which, last I checked, includes America) would be much better off if the "only trying to help" justification for nosing around in other people's business were disallowed. Superior? Pretentious? Those labels apply to the would-be helpers of the world. If only those Americans weren't so hopelessly misguided, right?
My post above was an exercise in sarcasm (see comment 10 if the sarc-o-meter on your browser isn't functioning properly). Re-reading the last line out of context (which is to say, in your post), and hacking through my hyperbole, I found the grain of truth. Sovereign self-determination is not an "American" thing to which we've staked some exclusive claim. It is the principle underlying the concept of the comity of nations. Buried in the ground? No--it only feels like it because of those who insist on trying to tell everyone else how to live.
Mind your own business. Keep your hands off. This goes for you, too, America.
Give me reincarnation, or give me death.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 6. Not on the specific, but on the general
| | | | by clevershark | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 4:30pm | score of 1.5 interesting | | | | | | |
As for the specifics of the King case, well, as was said in a movie -- I believe The Shawshank Redemption -- jail is full of people who "didn't do it".
However it is difficult intellectually to see the difference between murder committed by an individual and that committed by the state under the guise of "the death penalty". If anything capital punishment is the clearest possible case of first degree murder, as the premeditation and planning stage of an execution takes years more often than not.
If individuals do not have the liberty of engaging in this behaviour -- and rightly so -- then why does the state reserve that right for itself, when it is supposed to be nothing but the representative of the individuals who live in it?
I suspect that this is the main point Canadian groups are attempting to transmit to Americans. If anything trying to tie this message to any individual case hugely lessens its intellectual impact.
TAE (Visit my web page!)
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 19. Re: Not on the specific, but on the general
| | | | by mrwarmth | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 8:22pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 6 | | | | | |
According to your logic, then incarceration is tantamount to kidnapping, and therefore should not be allowed, since it makes the state no better than a kidnapper. Do you agree?
-Niall
Where is Ratko Mladic?
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 28. Re: Not on the specific, but on the general
| | | | by solid-one-love | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 9:08pm | score of 1.5 succinct | | in reply to comment 19 | | | | | |
No, it's part of the social contract that the state may punish a citizen for breaking the law. By being part of that society, every citizen gives the state tacit permission to punish him or her if convicted.
That said, every convicted citizen has the right to appeal his conviction and to seek redress if unjustly punished.
If imprisoned, the citizen has the ability to exercise his rights. If executed, the citizen does not.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 30. Re: Not on the specific, but on the general
| | | | by mrwarmth | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 9:40pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 28 | | | | | |
But that wasn't the argument stated. The argument was that, by killing in a premeditated fashion, the state's actions are indistinguishable from those of a killer. So if the state incarcerates someone, its actions are indistinguishable from those of a kidnapper.
If you think a prisoner has the same rights as a non-imprisoned, citizen, then you are sorely mistaken.
So if by killing the state becomes a killer, then surely by incarcertaion the state becomes a kidnapper. If the one is wrong, then surely the other is too, right?
-Niall
Where is Ratko Mladic?
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 35. Re: Not on the specific, but on the general
| | | | by solid-one-love | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 10:54pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 30 | | | | | |
No, for the reasons I stated. The social contract allows for the state to "kidnap" a convicted citizen; it is not kidnap because of the social contract.
I feel that the social contract is the ultimate law; as such, an execution is a murder in that it is an unlawful killing -- there are no tap-backs, and it prevents the executed citizen from exerting his rights.
The right to challenge the authority of the state is, IMHO, absolute and inviolate. That is why imprisonment is acceptable under the social contract, and execution is not.
There are, of course, many other reasons why the death penalty is wrong. This is merely one of them.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 48. Can I get a photocopy of that contract?
| | | | by MC Nally | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 2:31am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 35 | | | | | |
No, for the reasons I stated. The social contract allows for the state to "kidnap" a convicted citizen; it is not kidnap because of the social contract.
Sorry.. I've gotta side with niall on this one. Unless you've got a written copy of "the social contract" to back up your claims it seems kind of ludicrous to claim that it allows the state to go so far but no further, when that contradicts hundreds of years of judicial precedent.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 57. execution vs. incarceration
| | | | by davidpalter | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 5:45am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 35 | | | | | |
Your argument makes sense in the case of SUMMARY execution. If people are arrested and immediately executed (as, of course, happens in some countries - one could argue that it happens occasionally in the US as well, as for example during the Branch Davidian standoff at Waco) then they have no right to appeal their conviction. But normally in cases of capital punishment, there are lengthy judicial proceedings which often continue for over a decade. There is every right to appeal, and many appeals are made. In fact, many proponents of the death penalty believe that the sentence is greatly vitiated by the interminable appeals, and would like to institute a one year time limit on appeals, but so far that is just a proposal. --dp
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 51. Re: Not on the specific, but on the general
| | | | by Sodomized Peanut | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 4:32am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 6 | | | | | |
The reason why the state is the state is because it's supposedly (note keyword) more experienced to deal with these affairs than the individual is. Thus, the state reserves rights that the individual cannot have, because the individual is more often than not thick as pigshit, and the state knows better.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 8. Bedwetters? Oh My. Who Let THIS Dog Out Of The Q?
| | | | by xTrapL8 |  | | | at Sun 21 Jul 4:48pm | score of 4.5 compelling | | | | | | |
Huh?
What was that flying just past my head? A flaming troll? The rare spotted killer-hugging northern bedwetter?
Why is Canada being singled out here? Does everyone who opposes capital punishment have to be American?
Someone help me, I'm lost here. There are numerous countries that have delayed or questioned or refused extradition to the United States on similar grounds. Read this:
U.S officials have indicated that, in order to gain custody of suspected terrorists in Europe, they maybe willing to make concessions on both the death penalty and the use of military tribunals. Currently, England, Italy, and Spain hold suspected terrorists, but are among the over 40 nations that have signed the European Convention on Human Rights, which condemns the use of the death penalty and possibly the use of military tribunals.
Why pick on Canada specifically, unless you're trolling? There are lots of good reasons to dis Canada (those stupid Mountie uniforms, saying "eh", and "aboot", Brian Mulroney, Celine Dion, etc) but this is pretty sad.
Lots of people charged and even convicted of crimes are actually innocent, believe it or not, and personally I'm glad that there are organizations and watchdogs worldwide who make it a point of fucking monitoring this. Because, whether you're a victim or a wrongly convicted felon, losing your life unjustly must suck a lot, don't you think?
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones." -- John Cage
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 17. "Lots" of people charged and convicted are guilty
| | | | by rickcolosimo | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 8:11pm | score of 1.5 compelling | | in reply to comment 8 | | | | | |
Now, I understand that you weren't focusing on the point, but I do think that you ought to question whether "lots" of people who are convicted are guilty (frankly, the number of innocent people who are charged is a red herring; there's a much lower standard and it's to be expected). I, for one, think that even one actually innocent person who is convicted is too many, and it's an absolute tragedy if that person is executed. However, that statement doesn't say a damn thing about what the error rate actually is. I'm not sure whether it's "lots" or not, but I'm surely not going to assume it is because I read that somewhere. Spending time eliminating the death penalty would probably be better spent working to reduce the number of errors. Reducing errors in convictions (whether for capital crimes or not) would serve all the innocent people instead of just those who are accused of a relatively small number of crimes out of the total number of convictions.
If you work in a district attorney's office, you'll find that there is a much more substantial correlation between those convicted and those who are actually guilty than you might think. Too often, the safeguards that are designed to keep those innocent folks out of jail are used to keep the guilty out. Those instances, of course, chip away at our respect for the system. In any event, let's not focus on whether there are "lots" or not. Let's just keep fixing the system.
Oh, and even though other countries don't go for the death penalty doesn't necessarily make it immoral or uncivilized, per se. (Reasonable people might disagree.) If there are too many mistakes, then it is eminently reasonable for the courts to prohibit the practice until things are cleaned up, much as the federal courts did when the death penalty was administered in a racially discriminatory fashion.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 36. Re: "Lots" of people charged and convicted are
| | | | by xTrapL8 | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 11:23pm | score of 2 scholarly | | in reply to comment 17 | | | | | |
First, I'm in Canada, so I don't have to work to improve the American justice system -- our own is in a fair amount of disarray, thank you, although we at least don't have the anachronistic death penalty to contend with.
Second, I didn't just "assume" there are lots of cases. I linked to the book by Barry Scheck, Peter Neufeld and Jim Dwyer, because I have actually read it, and there is certainly enough compelling anecdotal and statistical evidence in there to be convincing.
In a situation in which it is very difficult to compile accurate stats, they nonetheless have exonerated quite a number of convicted "felons" through their "Innocence Project" (the book was published in 2000, so the following numbers must have increased significantly in the interim):
As of this writing, DNA testing has provided stone-cold proof that seventy four [74] people were sent to prison and death row for crimes they did not commit. The number grows every month...
Third, I agree that reducing errors would be the way to go. That's common sense. The argument in the book leans that way, too -- in fact, it highlights the horribly glacial and inexorable way in which the errors accumulate and are further compounded by judicial, prosecutorial and police over-zealousness until the so-called "wheels of justice" cannot be stopped -- or even slowed -- despite some clear incontrovertible errors.
We pretty much agree, I think. Racism has its role in there. The truly guilty are sometimes unfortunately helped by other, unrelated checks and balances. Some prosecuting attorneys and cops are genuinely concerned about justice. I wouldn't dispute any of that.
But errors are still rife. Many of the exonerations are purely DNA-related. So I now wonder how many have sat on Death Row (or in maximum security) tormented by their innocence, yet knowing full well that the DNA evidence was not a component of their alleged crime, and that therefore a false eye-witness testimony, say, will never be enough to encourage anyone to re-visit their case?
Oh, and fourth -- you were right. "Lots" was a stupid word to use. I should have quoted from the book I linked to. Damn human error, huh? ;)
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones." -- John Cage
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 37. Re: "Lots" of people charged and convicted are
| | | | by DrVital | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 11:24pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 17 | | | | | |
If you work in a district attorney's office, you'll find that there is a much more substantial correlation between those convicted and those who are actually guilty than you might think.
You mean they DA's office believe they're right? Wow!
The point here is that the legal system is the only binding correlation we have between convicted and guilty. Do we honestly, as a society, believe that system to be so faultless that we can use it to end the lives of the accused?
I don't, no matter how great the DA's think they are.
*****************
I am not content.
*****************
bodymix.net
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 54. Re: "Lots" of people charged and convicted are
| | | | by iarnuocon | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 5:32am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 17 | | | | | |
it is eminently reasonable for the courts to prohibit the practice until things are cleaned up, much as the federal courts did when the death penalty was administered in a racially discriminatory fashion.
What makes you think that racial discrimination in handing out death sentences is no longer true?
insanus omnis furere credit ceteros... ecce signum
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 73. Not belief, but evidence
| | | | by rickcolosimo | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 8:26am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 37 | | | | | |
My post said nothing about what DA's believe. Rather, I'm referring to the fact that in that office (or, if you prefer, in a criminal defense law office) you'll see a great amount of additional evidence, much of which can't be admitted or is (justifiably) often too vague or general to be of use in a prosecution (such as habit or reputation evidence). That additional evidence more than meets our individual standards for guilt, the way you might decide that a co-worker is embezzling without proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
I'm certainly not saying that our evidentiary standard is too high: it's designed to create errors in favor of guilty people to reduce and hopefully eliminate the number of errors regarding actually innocent people.
I'm not prepared to do an exhaustive history of the death penalty, but it certainly has been around for some time. I think that a lot of people (certainly more than a majority, if you think in terms of voting) are in favor of the death penalty, perhaps because they believe that errors fall mostly on otherwise "bad" people and not on stereotypical law-abiding citizens. I'm sure that result doesn't meet the legal standards, but it does give a plausible explanation for the apparent disconnect between recognition of errors and the maintenance of the death penalty's legality.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 75. Re: "Lots" of people charged and convicted are
| | | | by rickcolosimo | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 8:45am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 54 | | | | | |
I'm not sure whether there's actual discrimination or not, and I'm aware of the recent federal court ruling that the death penalty is being applied unconstitutionally. My statement is based on current US law, which, until the Supreme Court re-decides the issue, is that the death penalty is constitutional.
The issue of relevant statistics is pretty mucky, and the link provides some historical information that doesn't necessarily malign the death penalty in other states, or currently. Admittedly, this is a pretty weak argument on my part, but I'm trying to be consistent as well as reconcile the competing points of view in society.
The unusual thing, of course, is that these sorts of systematic problems are not terribly well suited to being solved through the judicial process. As complicated as they are, they're much better suited to legislative action.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 11. I don't like your tone there, sonny
| | | | by shintriad | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 7:03pm | score of 3 brilliant | | | | | | |
I swear if I see one more patronizing post that treats "thems wacky Canadians" as your infantile, retarded cousin, I'm going to start sending donations to al-Quaeda or something. You need to be bitch-slapped very, very badly.
The thing is, us Canucks look at stuff like this and just shake our heads in disgust; we already know that Americans couldn't be more ignorant if they tried, but sometimes you even seem to relish that fact that you've made it an art form. Smarten up.
"I don't create things, I bring existing things together. The only element I use is catastrophe." - Malcolm McLaren
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 14. Re: I don't like your tone there, sonny
| | | | by Ajax | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 7:29pm | score of 1.5 clever | | in reply to comment 11 | | | | | |
Speaking as an American, what really steams me the most is that he didn't bother to capitalize "Canadians."
Bigotry is one thing, but ignorance of the rules of capitalization? Get a rope.
"Coca-Cola® and Armageddon® / We like it, like it, yes we do!" -- Clutch.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 15. Jesus
| | | | by bitekman | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 7:32pm | score of 2.5 astute | | | | | | |
I can't belive this got posted from the subq. It's the most blatant troll to come our way in a long time. "Killer-hugging bedwetters?" Please.
The canadian bashing is tiresome too. For christ's sake, it's just not funny. It's stupid.
And for your information, it's not that farfetched to think that people on death row are innocent. In fact, illinois exonerated more people than it executed since 1977. Those are not good odds.
I'm full of bees...who died at sea -- Sparklehorse
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 20. Fallacies of argument 101
| | | | by snwodttam | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 8:26pm | score of 1.5 astute | | | | | | |
When one resorts to ad-hominem tactics within an argument (and I?m using the term "argument" here loosely), one clouds the point of the issue at hand as well as invites return ad-hominem attacks. Stick with the issue in your write-up--if you want to discuss the death penalty, then argue your point coherently and with some bit of relevent support. Making fun of Canadians, for example, is not relevent to the argument for/against the death penalty.
And, as far as Canadian bashing goes...I just don't get it anymore. I mean, when the internet was younger, sure it was slightly amusing to poke fun at the abundance of Canadians that populated the bandwidth. But, after a decade or two, the joke begins to wear very, very thin.
These things happen to other people
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 29. Re: Fallacies of argument 101
| | | | by Lemmy Caution | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 9:35pm | score of 2 brilliant | | in reply to comment 20 | | | | | |
The trajectory of the Canadian joke is a pretty sad one. Originally, jokes were told about Canadians by relatively liberal, cosmopolitan Americans with the implicit understanding that so little actually separated Canadians from Americans, and that little (Canadian reserve, politeness, and social-welfare institutions) was actually admired by those Americans who made the jokes, that the humor came from the absurdity of making a distinction between Americans and Canadians. What's happened since then is that the American geist has lurched to the right, the flag-wavers and socialism-bashers grabbed the "make fun of Canada" trope without a shred of irony, and the whole thing got out of hand. Not unlike the way that "politically correct" was once a self-deprecating joke about lefties, a way that the tempermentally lefty would caricature the dogmatically lefty, became a somewhat more brutal cudgel in the hands of the right.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 40. Re: Fallacies of argument 101
| | | | by xTrapL8 | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 12:11am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 29 | | | | | |
Brilliant!
Your post captured the history of this meme so well.
Although I still think Blame Canada's pretty funny:
Blame Canada
With all their hockey hubbabaloo
And that bitch Anne Murray too
Blame Canada
Shame on Canada
The smut we must stop
The trash we must smash
Laughter and fun
must all be undone
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before someone thinks of blaming uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus.
I think the South Park people were on to something at the end there ;)
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones." -- John Cage
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 21. Amos King, 48 years old, and 25 years ...
| | | | by MAYORBOB | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 8:38pm | score of 1.5 astute | | | | | | |
on death row. And one of the questions asked was, "why the haste to execute Amos King?" How about, it's only been a quarter century since he was convicted.
You would think that, given 25 years, and with all that help, he would have turned up some conclusive proof of his innocence. Instead, he plays the time honored game of nitpicking select portions of the prosecution's case.
I can't leave this without concurring that I also found the write up to be borderline obnoxious. Do I think that justice has been delayed in this case? Yes. But that doesn't mean that the people who choose to fight the death penalty deserve to be insulted or called cute names.
Tending to final details.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 41. Re: Amos King, 48 years old, and 25 years ...
| | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 12:31am | score of 0.5 astute | | in reply to comment 21 | | | | | |
Do you really believe that innocence can, in general, be proved easily?
Often, it can't. Which is why guilt must be proved in courts, and the easiest way to prove innocence is to show flaws in the "proof" of guilt.
Of course guilt cannot be absolutely proved in many cases, either.
We have to accept that sometimes, guilty people will be left unconvicted and sometimes, innocent people will be sent to jail. IMO it is far more important to minimize the latter than the former. Too little is currently done, and even if "sufficient" measures are taken, the chance of errors should be reason enough to not even consider the death penalty an option, ever.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | | 23. Canuck Common Sense
| | | | by PinkMoose23 | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 8:53pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
I am one of those killer-hugging bedwetters living to the north and do you know what ? We can actually spring people who end up being proven innocent. I am not against the death penalty for ethical or moral reasons but practical ones- namely humans are fallible , and any one who is falliable cannot make such an in fallible descion.
eat rice;wash bowl
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 27. Re: Canuck Common Sense
| | | | by solid-one-love | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 9:02pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 23 | | | | | |
Americans are just pissed off that another sovereign nation would dare to hold someone and refuse to extradite until the death penalty is taken off the table. How dare we?
We're the civilized guys to your north, bucko. One day you'll grow out of your determinationalist, "eye for an eye" belief in Manifest Destiny and we won't need to have this kind of discussion.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 34. Re: Canuck Common Sense
| | | | by superdude | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 10:51pm | score of 0.5 disingenuous | | in reply to comment 23 | | | | | |
I am not against the death penalty for ethical or moral reasons but practical ones- namely humans are fallible , and any one who is falliable cannot make such an in fallible descion.
I suppose we should set the highway speed limit at 6 mph then, to be absolutely sure no one ever gets killed in a car accident. A human decision to set the speed limit higher has led to thousands of deaths annually.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 83. Re: Canuck Common Sense
| | | | by Bearpaw | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 11:14am | score of 1.5 clever | | in reply to comment 34 | | | | | |
"I am not against the death penalty for ethical or moral reasons but practical ones- namely humans are fallible , and any one who is falliable cannot make such an in fallible descion."
I suppose we should set the highway speed limit at 6 mph then, to be absolutely sure no one ever gets killed in a car accident. A human decision to set the speed limit higher has led to thousands of deaths annually.
I suggest you visit a grocery store and go to the fruit section. Look at the items under the sign that says "Apples", and then look at the items under the sign that says "Oranges". Apples and oranges are both round fruits, but distinguishing between them is actually quite easy with a little practice.
Proud member of the reality-based minority.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 24. An underlying problem, methinks....
| | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 8:53pm | score of 1.5 clever | | | | | | |
Looking at slam's previously posted story, I notice he once again makes use of the term "bedwetting". Takes some of longer to outgrow it than others, eh slam?
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | | 38. Re: The Writeup --
| | | | by tbo | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 11:30pm | score of 2 helpful | | in reply to comment 25 | | | | | |
As a Canadian, I personally found it quite funny.
Of course, Americans really can't complain about us interfering in your executions, seeing as how you guys were so willing to sign a petition against the Saskatchewan seal hunt.
In case you think the links above are anomalies, a friend of mine who is visiting Louisiana right now was just asked which "providence" he lived in and who the Canadian president was.
This article is pretty stupid, but it makes for a great place for Canadian/American bashing.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 26. Injustice is injustice.
| | | | by solid-one-love | | | | at Sun 21 Jul 8:59pm | score of 2.5 astute | | | | | | |
Injustice is injustice, and the death penalty is unjust. Most Americans don't trust their government to get their tax refund right -- how can you trust them to be absolutely sure before executing someone?
Now, then:
Why should I mind my own business about the barbaric laws of another country simply because I don't live there?
It occurs to me that part of the US' (ostensible) justification for invading Afghanistan was to make conditions better for women. Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, eh? Those pro-death-penalty folks in the US should be satisfied that diplomacy, negotiation and activism are the means being used to fight against the death penalty, and not flaming cans of gasoline. We're polite like that up here. We prefer strong words to daisy cutters.
The US is one of the very few First World nations to still use the death penalty (Japan is another, and while it's on the books in Russia, it hasn't been used in some years). Sorry to be cliche, but this is another example of the US being in the camp of many strong-willed conservative nations -- like Saudi Arabia, Libya, China and North Korea.
One would think that Illinois' example would be good enough -- its governor put a moratorium (ironic word, that) on executions because of the overwhelming evidence that innocent men had been executed.
Perhaps Ben Franklin said it best: "better a hundred guilty men go unpunished than one innocent man be hanged."
The death penalty is the primary reason that I support Amnesty International, both monetarily and with my time. You should, too.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 43. Re: Injustice is injustice.
| | | | by superdude | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 1:08am | score of 1.5 helpful | | in reply to comment 26 | | | | | |
Most Americans don't trust their government to get their tax refund right -- how can you trust them to be absolutely sure before executing someone?
A verdict in a murder trial is always a life-and-death decision, whether the death penalty is imposed or not. It's comforting to think that a life sentence can at least be reversed, but in truth this very rarely happens. So if we are wrongly convicting a large number of people, we can assume that most of those people are dying in prison without ever being exonerated. Therefore, if you're not comfortable sentencing someone to death based on a trial verdict, then you really should be uncomfortable imposing any kind of penalty at all.
Personally, I was called for jury duty recently. It was a murder trial in which the defendant was accused of beating to death his 3-year-old stepson. The defendant was a black man from a public housing project. But he had (what appeared to me at least) competent counsel, and we spent five days just doing jury selection. We took five days making sure that this person who had absolutely no connections to the power structure would get a jury that could be fair to him--never mind the amount of time and care taken in examining the evidence, which was even greater. It was a frustrating and sometimes maddeningly plodding process, but I left the courtroom feeling very confident that the defendant would get a fair trial. And of course, if this had been a death penalty case (which it wasn't) the defendant would have had at least one appeal after this first very careful trial, and probably several more after that.
As for whether the death penalty is "unjust"--how so? I don't agree. I think it is perfectly just to kill someone who is guilty of raping and murdering a 6-year-old, for instance. If someone did that to my daughter, I would take comfort knowing he was wiped off the planet, and isn't in prison working on his college degree. What would you view as an appropriate penalty for someone who committed a horrific crime? Life in prison, learning to watercolor and taking anger management classes? I would find it infuriating if the person who murdered my daughter got off that easy. It would be legitimate for me to feel that way. Simply locking up someone who did something that horrible would not be just. Then of course there is the alternative that is practiced in all the "civilized" countries--locking up the inmate for the rest of his life with other vicious killers, and letting them beat, humiliate and prey on each other. That's what's really barbaric.
its governor put a moratorium (ironic word, that)
Um, no. Moratorium comes from the Latin "morari"--to delay--not "mori", to die.
I only bring this up because the Brits are always saying that Americans don't get irony, when the truth is, we do get irony, but a lot of times Brits just aren't as funny or clever as they think they are.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 47. Re: Injustice is injustice.
| | | | by solid-one-love | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 2:30am | score of 1 modappeal | | in reply to comment 43 | | | | | |
If someone did that to my daughter, I would take comfort knowing he was wiped off the planet, and isn't in prison working on his college degree.
Yet another in the long list of reasons why the death penalty should never be an option.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 82. Re: Injustice is injustice.
| | | | by maml | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 11:12am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 43 | | | | | |
If someone did that to my daughter, I would take comfort knowing he was wiped off the planet...
That would sure bring your daughter back, wouldn't it?
There are many survivors of violence and relatives of the deceased who work against the death penalty because they've found vengeance to be a cold, hollow comfort.
As for the barbarity of our prison system, I see another thing that needs reforming.
I've blocked AI. I'm happier now.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 85. Re: Injustice is injustice.
| | | | by superdude | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 1:06pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 82 | | | | | |
There are many survivors of violence and relatives of the deceased who work against the death penalty because they've found vengeance to be a cold, hollow comfort.
That's them. People have different ways of grieving. If you read interviews with survivors of the Oklahoma City bombing, you will find some that were comforted by Timothy McVeigh's execution, and some that were not. But nothing anyone has said convinces me that executing a killer is such a severe encroachment on human rights that we need to prohibit it, and deny relief to those who would be comforted by an execution.
Personally, I'm glad that Timothy McVeigh won't have the opportunity to chat with Time magazine on the 20th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing, opening fresh emotional wounds for his victims.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 88. Re: Injustice is injustice.
| | | | by maml | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 1:32pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 85 | | | | | |
And I'm sad that Timothy McVeigh won't have the opportunity to realize the immensity of the crime he committed. Maybe his Time interview would have convinced some would-be mass murderer that violence wasn't the answer. And I'm sad that some prison employee had to pull the switch on Mr. McVeigh. Not as sad as I am that he choose to snuff out 300+ lives over some bizzare political qualm, not nearly as sad. But two wrongs don't make a right.
I've blocked AI. I'm happier now.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 89. Re: Injustice is injustice.
| | | | by superdude | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 1:53pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 88 | | | | | |
I'm sad that Timothy McVeigh won't have the opportunity to realize the immensity of the crime he committed.
I'm happy that his victims have been spared a lifetime of waiting for him to show contrition. He's not sorry. Never will be. Now they can stop speculating about it and go on with life.
Maybe his Time interview would have convinced some would-be mass murderer that violence wasn't the answer.
Yeah, because nothing shakes a mass murderer of his convictions like a heart-felt cautionary tale.
More likely, some would-be mass murderer would read the interview and think that Timothy McVeigh is sending him a secret, coded message to KILL THEM ALL! before the queers, in alliance with the Jews and the stone masons, impose a one-world government on us!
But two wrongs don't make a right.
It isn't two wrongs. It simply isn't wrong, in my view or in the view of most Americans, to kill a murderer who has had a fair trial, any more than it would be wrong to imprison one.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 91. Re: Injustice is injustice.
| | | | by maml | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 2:26pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 89 | | | | | |
Yeah, because nothing shakes a mass murderer of his convictions like a heart-felt cautionary tale.
Nothing has created more mass murders than a glorious martyr to the cause.
I've blocked AI. I'm happier now.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 84. Re: Injustice is injustice.
| | | | by TRACKYOURPOSITION | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 12:52pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 26 | | | | | |
It occurs to me that part of the US' (ostensible) justification for invading Afghanistan was to make conditions better for women. Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, eh?
You know, I've got serious doubts about whether the death penalty is a good idea or not. But foreigners trying to paint an equivalence between the couple hundred people, charged and convicted of actual crimes, killed in the United States since the 70s, with the genocide and political executions of nondemocratic nations is completely ridiculous. Yes, you've got a right to express whatever point you want with regards to American policy both foreign and domestic, just as I've got the right to dismiss as insane anyone trying to paint the United States as equal to Saudi Arabia, Libya, China or North Korea.
Whether or not the death penalty is wrong, surely a death penalty with fair trials, many opportunities to appeal, thus far inflicted upon barely a thousandth of a percent of our population, and supported by a large majority of the nation's inhabitants isn't the worst scourge upon human rights the world has faced.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 87. Re: Injustice is injustice.
| | | | by nuckferr | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 1:26pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 26 | | | | | |
Injustice is injustice, and the death penalty is unjust. Most Americans don't trust their government to get their tax refund right -- how can you trust them to be absolutely sure before executing someone?
I agree with your stance on the issue, but this is just the type of hyperbole that fucks up the debate. You should at least put the issue in the correct factual context. It is a jury of citizens off the street, not the government, that makes the decision on guilt, innocence and imposing the death penalty. All the government does is put forth it's evidence and carry out the sentence. It's significantly different thing then the picture painted by your statement.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | | 49. I wonder...
| | | | by Schweinhund | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 2:50am | score of 1 | | | | | | |
...how a Government can at the same time stigmatize Murder as the single worst thing a person can do and then use it as a mean of Crime Control. The Governing System should at least in its foundation pretend to live its ideals, i think.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 61. Blood yea blood!!
| | | | by aeiou | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 6:06am | score of 2 brilliant | | | | | | |
This is one of the best stories posted in a long time. Look at the trolling, look at the cursing. I think there should be a rage meter on discussions, it could count the profanities and allocate a score to the story.
mkay?
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 68. Re: Blood yea blood!!
| | | | by ignatiusreilly | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 8:02am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 61 | | | | | |
Another indicator of a lively (read: rage-filled) discussion is the higher-than-normal proportion of posters using AI instead of their Plastic IDs. I've only been a member for a few days, but it looks like AI is the gateway to really speaking your mind.
Give me reincarnation, or give me death.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 74. Missing point
| | | | by curve06 | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 8:28am | score of 1 | | | | | | |
while I agree with everyone who posted about unfairly bashing canadians, I think there is a bigger point being missed here.
What about all of the people who really are innocent and have been wrongly convicted? Hasn't anyone seen the movie 'The Hurricane'? That is one of my biggest problems with the death penalty. How many innocent people have paid the ultimate price for a crime that they didn't commit?
If you can do a half-assed job of anything, you're a one-eyed man in a kingdom of the blind. - Kurt Vonnegut
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 76. Ethics question
| | | | by Ben Bridenbaugh | | | | at Mon 22 Jul 9:17am | score of 0.5 incoherent | | | | | | |
I think there are big problems with the death penalty. Mainly it seems unfairly biased by money, social class, and then race. As a solution, I'd remove the "Sleeping, underfunded, incompetent public defenders" and ADD crimes to the death list, such as high FINANCIAL CRIMES.
I wouldn't go as far as to abolish it, though. I've seen lots of pictures of the "defendants" from these Death Penalty cases. Regardless of their individual guilt or innocence, by FAR they look like vacant, evil, soulless monsters who'd kill sooner or later if they get another opportunity. Given the possible race bias of the DP it is hard to say that without sounding racist, so apologies there as I am not.
Had an argument with someone on a similar vein a while back. (When Spain refused to extradite some Taliban detanees to the USA because of the EU stance on life imprisonment and the Death Penalty) I could not see why Spain was willing to spend its own money holding a very dangerous terrorist who'd nail bomb a kindergaten class if a 747 is not available when the USA would take him off their hands (permanantly, perhaps) for FREE and with thanks.
A plastician (forgot his name, apologies) posted that EU idealism, apparantly being from Europe. I just suggested "Well no arguing with that logic" and why not empty the USA's jails of our most sickening monsters that haven't yet been executed or have life sentences. Mass murderers, child molestor/killers, serial killers, drug dealers with high body counts.... Send 'em on a fleet of planes over there, to not fear extradition to the USA where they face "Injustice". Didn't get a response;-)
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 103. Re: Ethics question
| | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Tue 23 Jul 3:13pm | score of 0.5 funny | | in reply to comment 76 | | | | | |
I figured you were from Europe...what is your first language? It's certainly not English!
BTW, you are sure one smart feller, for someone who doesn't speak English! I bet you didn't get a response because they were cowering in fear of your superior intellect!
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | |
| | Member Login | | | |
|
