Sing When You're Losing: Why Immigrants Don't Shout For The US
	found on: Pacific News written by holgate, edited by Humberto (Plastic) [ read unedited ] posted Wed 29 May 2:55pm
		'Just because I want the United States to lose doesn't mean I want the country itself to suffer,' Sagastizado says. 'I just want the soccer team to be beat.' "With the World Cup finals a few days away, the unending debate on the status of 'soccer' in the US takes a twist with a report on how immigrants and their US-born families still shout for the old country over their adopted home," writes holgate. "The devotion to the country of origin is especially strong among Latino Americans, but Korean immigrants also look likely to be rooting for some 'payback' in the group games. I've seen this on a personal level: my girlfriend's housemates will be cheering on the Portuguese when they face the USA next week, and Brits are already familiar with the 'cricket test', when descendents of south Asian and Caribbean immigrants support England's opponents during matches. Is this a product of the perceived disregard for soccer in the USA, or, as the article suggests, a way for 'hyphen-Americans' to 'express both frustration with their new home and pride in their old country.'?"

[ more plastic... ]    

show almost all: 54 commentsmost: 31 commentsbest: 15 comments by oldest first (ignore threads) newest first highest scores first oldest first newest first (ignore threads)

4.  Familiarity breeds...   by Thalia       at Wed 29 May 3:13pm score of 5 astute     Love. Or something like it. My friend, who hasn't been a soccer fan in many a year can still recite the names of all of the members of the soccer team of his native country, which once won the World Cup. He cares. And, when he recently found out that one of the kids of his heroes is now playing on the national team, he tuned in to watch. Why? Because it's a connection to his childhood. He has no connection, on an emotional level, of the American team. He didn't watch them as a child. This is similar to folks who are from Chicago still cheering for the Cubs even though they haven't been back in decades. And, if their kids grow up cheering for the Cubs and watching the Cubs on TV and when they're visiting, guess who they'll be cheering for as grownups. Check out the rabid baseball fans, who are kids of fans, and who have never lived in the same towns as "their" team. This has nothing to do with "expressing frustration with the US" ... and everything to do with nostalgia and remembering when one was a child. Thalia Judeo-Christianity: just like regular Christianity, only insincerely 5% more inclusive! -- MC Nally   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

6.  Re: Familiarity breeds...   by JET24       at Wed 29 May 3:23pm score of 2 astute   in reply to comment 4     I was just going to make a similar comment. Here in Phoenix, where almost everyone is from somewhere else, people root for their old hometown sports teams when they play the Phoenix teams. More people root for the Phoenix teams when they are winning, but when teams like Chicago, Detroit, and Dallas come to town, they stands are full of fans of both teams. It's great fun to watch all of the fistfights that break out over team alliances, particularly at the Cardinals games because the Arizona fans are always outnumbered. Anyway, I agree with Thalia - this has everything to do with childhood nostalgia, and little to do with frustration at the US. Religion don't mean a thing; it's just another way to be right. - Spoon   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   11.  Re: Familiarity breeds...   by holgate       at Wed 29 May 3:47pm score of 3 astute   in reply to comment 4     Oh, I agree with you on the idea that you can be an 'expat' supporter: I've been to London meetings of the 'expat' supporters' club of my home-town team and met plenty of kids who've never been to the home ground, but whose parents passed on the religion. But I do think that the split in national affiliation reported here is a little different than home-town club loyalty, particularly because of the absence of a strong national team and league in the USA. In short: a third-generation Italian-American shouting for Italy is a bit different from a third-generation New Yorker in California shouting for the Yankees. For the most part, north American sports don't really have a symbiotic relationship between club and country, apart from the four-yearly Olympic hockey, baseball and basketball competitions. You can argue, even then, that 'Team USA' in those events is a much more artificial construct than the national teams in soccer, which play qualifiers during the regular season and major tournaments every two years. Certainly, most soccer players regard playing for the national team as a greater achievement than, say, the Dream Team in basketball: take someone like Alen Boksic, who plays for my local club side, and who regards playing for Croatia as a patriotic duty. And while home-town soccer teams are now as multi-national as baseball, hockey and basketball teams, the sense of national loyalty -- the reason why much of the world will stop what it's doing to watch the World Cup -- is still a driving force. Which is why it's vital for those who run soccer in the US to capture the imagination of exactly those groups that it wants to form the grassroots of an American league. (What's bizarre here is that the Republic of Ireland's greatest achievements in international soccer have come from a team that's mainly comprised of British citizens, with Irish grandparentage. Work that paradox out.)   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   21.  Re: Familiarity breeds...   by FatRatBastard       at Wed 29 May 6:30pm score of 2 astute   in reply to comment 4     This has nothing to do with "expressing frustration with the US" ... and everything to do with nostalgia and remembering when one was a child. You hit the nail on the head. I grew up in the UK on a military base (and my mum's a brit) and I love this country, but I'll be damned if I root for the US. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see them do well but all of my attention/anxiety/crossed fingers will be for England. Plastic: documenting the growing irrelevance of the left since 2000.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   30.  Re: Familiarity breeds...   by pilchard       at Wed 29 May 8:45pm score of 2 astute   in reply to comment 4     love of country, and love of football too ... you wouldn't have any fun supporting the u.s. ... last world cup (france) i was in the states, the 'official' commentary (on espn?) sucked big time. they had a couple of monotone guys in suits and ties who didn't know anything about football and who were constantly manipulating on-screen graphics that showed percentage of possession, etc. we called them 'pinky and perky' somewhat to the consternation of americans ... (somewhat like the phrase 'keep your pecker up'). we wound up watching it all on a spanish channel (unovision?) because although we didn't speak spanish the commentators got pretty excited about the game. some columbians we knew started to come round, which made any europe vs. south america match worthy watching regardless of who was playing, even after england were knocked out, especially the final. it would all have been a bit dull just supporting the yanks, because they're crap at football. they're good at other things, but they're crap at football. I think I am, therefore I am. I think.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

8.  The real frustration...   by holgate       at Wed 29 May 3:30pm score of 3 astute     I agree that the idea that you shout for the old country as a way to 'vent frustration' owes more to the writer here than the phenomenon. What's more interesting is that advocates of soccer in the US have long said that the grassroots -- the kids who'll turn the game from a pastime that's dropped at high school and college, especially for boys -- will come from the immigrant communities, where the game's in their blood. And if the Italian-Americans are shouting for the azzuri, and the Portuguese-Americans are cheering on Figo, I can't see that grassroots emerging. The same applies in cricket: as the link I posted suggests, if there's going to be a resurgence of English cricket, it's foolish not to look particularly at the second- and third-generation south Asians in Britain, where the game is still as strong as in the subcontinent. But the antiquated county and league structure seems to exclude south Asians in places like Yorkshire and Lancashire, and implants a culture of supporting India, Pakistan, Bangladesh or Sri Lanka, which is really regrettable, especially when England's current team owes a lot to players such as Nasser Hussain and Usman Ufzaal   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

9.  I'm a third-generation Cincinnati Reds fan...   by Brian Jones       at Wed 29 May 3:36pm score of 3 clever     ...even though nobody in my family is from anywhere west of Ozone Park, Queens. So it should come as no surprise that when it comes to soccer, this native New Yorker is rooting for...Cameroon. Mainly because Indomitable Lions is the coolest team name in the bunch. Cheap crass attention-whoring plug goes here.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

12.  Re: I'm a third-generation Cincinnati Reds fan...   by holgate       at Wed 29 May 3:52pm score of 2 clever   in reply to comment 9     Mainly because Indomitable Lions is the coolest team name in the bunch. Heh: the Nigerian 'Super Eagles' may question that. But what's cool about Cameroon is that the team is brave enough to wear shirts modelled on what is known, in American parlance, as the 'wifebeater'. Shame on FIFA for banning the shirts from the World Cup.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

10.  There ought to be a law!   by zyxwvutsr       at Wed 29 May 3:46pm score of 4 funny     Well, I've had it! I am going to write to my congressman, the Honorable Vito Fossella and demand that he introduce legislation that will require immigrants to renounce their team allegiance before being granted a green card. No...that's not enough. The law should require immigrants to take an oath to forsake soccer and learn to love football! Real football, not that silly foreign game, soccer, that those people call "football." How absurd! Wait a second. Vito? Fossella? That sounds Italian! Oh, christ! He probably likes soccer! I'll bet he secretly smiles when the Italian team scores. Next time I'm gonna vote for an American for congress. Curses! Foiled again!   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

17.  more sports bs. who cares what team?   by box       at Wed 29 May 4:10pm score of 2 astute     There is no rational reason I can see for "rooting" for the local team in the US. The local team generally has very few local members. If the point is to root for your community, then I think the point is lost. Players are traded, they leave for greener pastures all the time. A "local team" is really just a "local business" that happens to be owned and staffed by people from wherever. It's not just here [US] either - if the players don't even respect or support their own teams, why the hell should I? At least these World Cup fans are rooting for people from the communities they grew up in. I have to give them credit for that, patriotism aside. In fact, I would go so far as to say patriotism shouldn't be brought into this, as we as a country have allowed the mighty dollar to corrupt sports into one big TV commercial. It would make more sense to root for a team whose jerseys you liked...   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

31.  Missing the point *entirely.*   by Lemmy Caution       at Wed 29 May 8:54pm score of 2 irrelevant   in reply to comment 17     I can't believe that no one has asked themselves who an American expatriate living in another country would root for. When I was living in South America, I *did* root for the US, far more than I do here! I think most American expats feel the same way - even as they remember the reasons why the left the US, they feel some sense of connection and fond remembrance of the place. They certainly do *not* feel any compulsion to root for the teams of their newfound homes - nor to "go native" in a myriad other ways.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

19.  soccer is not foreign to the united states   by Approposki       at Wed 29 May 5:10pm score of 4 brilliant     You are speaking of the same culture which added the term "soccer-mom" to the vernacular? I played soccer as a child in the eighties for numerous seasons, myself. However, soccer does not hold the same stature as a glamorous sport because a. unlike baseball it is not connected with a traditional folklore and native history and b. soccer players are not freak human beings in stature and ability as compared to beloved football and basketball and c. hockey is already popular and involves heavy contact.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

20.  Re: soccer is not foreign to the united states   by snoozebar       at Wed 29 May 5:47pm score of 4 clever   in reply to comment 19     and d. soccer is seen as a white, upper middle class sport. (Not too many kids dribble a soccer ball out of the ghetto.) Unless it can change its image in the US, soccer is doomed to be just another second-tier sport.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   53.  Re: soccer is not foreign to the united states   by thegooch777       at Thu 30 May 9:55am score of 1   in reply to comment 20     You're absolutely right about the class issues latent here- soccer is often perceived as a predominantly upper or upper-middle class sport on a par with lacrosse and golf. Also, there's the whole "where the hell do you stick the Bud ads?" problem, which has got to undermine its economic viability as a big-time sport. All I want is a burrow owl, just like my old man   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   55.  Re: soccer is not foreign to the united states   by xTrapL8       at Thu 30 May 10:06am score of 1   in reply to comment 53     This class thing might be less of a red herring than it first appears. Initially I wanted to dismiss it. But then I had to acknowledge that football (soccer) is predominantly a working-class sport pretty much everywhere else in the world. This probably explains a lot -- for instance, why the US comes across as arrogant and elitist in it's snubbing of the game. Perhaps it's middle class established Americans who play the game at the grass roots level, although I'm betting it's working class hyphen-Americans who are right alongside them, and there's an underlying class tension there. Okay, I'm guessing to an extent -- anyone? "I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones." -- John Cage   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   60.  Re: soccer is not foreign to the united states   by holgate       at Thu 30 May 12:36pm score of 1   in reply to comment 55     The class issue's an interesting observation: I've had kickabouts with the Spanish-speaking kids in Atlanta, and there's definitely something more 'organic' about it than the over-organised 'clean-shirts and SUVs' type of structure that's seen as the 'proper' path to MLS. That said, most of the British teenagers who get offered sports scholarships to go and help in the coaching and training at US colleges tend to be working-class kids, who've basically grown up with the game and are pretty good at taking down the 'pretty boy / hard-ass girl' culture a peg or two. I've known a few mates from home, who ended up on sports scholarships at Brown, even though they were about as far away from the Ivy League mentality as you can get; and I know that plenty of the England women's team have been headhunted from similar backgrounds to play in the US women's league. So, as long as those kinds of things keep happening -- and as long as there's no barrier erected between park kickabouts and 'soccer mom & SUV' leagues -- I can see the middle-class stigma disappear, and, I hope, a sense that the national team is inclusive.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   35.  Re: soccer is not foreign to the united states   by Kurtz       at Wed 29 May 9:38pm score of 5 informative   in reply to comment 19     a. unlike baseball it is not connected with a traditional folklore and native history Actually, this isn't exactly true. The U.S. had the first soccer club outside of England (Oneida Football club, 1862), played in the first international game that didn't involve England (or maybe first one played outside of England), and has the second oldest domestic cup competition (the U.S. Open Cup, established 1914). Also, the U.S. were semifinalists in the inaugural World Cup of 1930. Soccer never really 'busted out', though, and so has remained a largely underground sport in the U.S. through the years. For more, try An Overview of American Soccer History --What Would Azathoth Do?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

22.  My take on Soccer's lack of cache   by ROYHOBBS1       at Wed 29 May 6:58pm score of 2 astute     Though an absolute sports fanatic, I should admit that I've never really played the game outside of when forced to in gym class. So my two cents is based more on my perception of the game then having actually played it. Growing up, soccer was always the sport for those kids who were to small for football or basketball or lacked the hand/eye coordination or ability to overcome the fear (natural) of a puck/baseball. Some of my friends loved it, but I didn't get it. That said, I was in Dublin for the 98 World Cup. Prior to 1998, I've watched about 10 minutes of professional soccer. But watching Scotland play while sitting among a crowd of Scottish expatriates was one of the best experiences of my trip. The passion was astounding I've never hear fuck elongated into so many syllables. However, it really reminded of watching a baseball game. Due to all the down time with the ball seemingly mired at midfield, the fans had plenty of time to drink and talk. When a rush occurred people would focus on the game for a second, swear, and resume drinking. To me, It was more of a social gathering then anything else. I just don't see soccer being able to pass hockey, let alone one of the big three in this country. Hockey is roughly the same game, only played at a much faster pace, requiring amazing hand high coordination (redirecting a slap shot is the single most difficult thing in sports to do), and with plenty of hitting thrown in. Soccer just can't compete.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

37.  Re: My take on Soccer's lack of cache   by Kurtz       at Wed 29 May 10:08pm score of 2 astute   in reply to comment 22     If faster pace were an issue, indoor soccer or futsal would be taking off. American teams are pretty good at those games, but, quixotically, many outdoor soccer fans won't take them seriously because it's not 'real' soccer. Hockey is much like soccer and I'm nominally a fan of hockey when it's not too thuggish. Obviously, though, I favor the more complex strategies (bigger field, more players) and more elegant action (Gretzky-like moments) of soccer. --What Would Azathoth Do?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   51.  Re: My take on Soccer's lack of cache   by maml       at Thu 30 May 9:44am score of 1   in reply to comment 22     Hockey is roughly the same game, only played at a much faster pace, requiring amazing hand high coordination (redirecting a slap shot is the single most difficult thing in sports to do), and with plenty of hitting thrown in. Soccer just can't compete. Try heading a ball into the far corner, one-touching an accurate pass, or making a diving save on a penalty kick. Soccer has plenty of fight/eye coordination (or even better "foot/knowing where the ball is going to be without even looking cause I'm that fucking good") tricks that make a redirect (50% reaction time, 50% luck) look like child's play. I've blocked AI. I'm happier now.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

25.  wither freedom?   by Anonymous Idiot       at Wed 29 May 7:55pm score of 1 irrelevant     For people from the so called 'land of the free', you Americans sure do seem to care a lot about what people in your country believe / who they're going to cheer for. Isn't everyone entitled to decide whether or not they want to support the USA?! Or is that one freedom that's not negotiable...   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

26.  The heck with the brand new immigrants.   by MAYORBOB       at Wed 29 May 7:58pm score of 4 astute     My wife is a third generation American. Her grandfather came over on the boat as a child from Italy. Despite being 70 years removed from the homeland my wife, and her cousins, make it a point to break out the "Forza Italia" banners at World Cup time. People seem to always touch base with their national roots no matter how many generations the family has been here. Tending to final details.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

29.  Whoosh   by Kurtz       at Wed 29 May 8:33pm score of 1 astute     I think most, if not all, of the posts above are missing the point that these immigrants not only support their native countries against the U.S. (completely understandable), they all too often cheer against the U.S. regardless of who they are playing. It's not like they don't enjoy the sport, so why don't they want the U.S. to succeed? My pet theory: they like the fact that the U.S., superpower and world heavy (bully?), struggles where so many other countries, small to large, rich to poor, excel. --What Would Azathoth Do?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

34.  Americans will cheer for Soccer when...   by MiG       at Wed 29 May 9:25pm score of 1     Americans will cheer for Soccer when team USA actually starts winning a game or two. But hey, at least they're doing better than team Canada, which can't seem to make it to the World Cup.   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

39.  Re: Americans will cheer for Soccer when...   by Kurtz       at Wed 29 May 10:26pm score of 2 astute   in reply to comment 34     Since the U.S. is 31-16-13 since Bruce Arena took over in 1998, winning games isn't the problem. Winning games when the media is actually paying attention is the problem (bet you didn't see anywhere in the news that the U.S. won the Gold Cup earlier this year). Only the World Cup manages to garner a little attention and no one can understand that just qualifying for the Cup is an achievement to be proud of; that the U.S. has done it four times in a row now is a definite sign of progress (1994 was an automatic qualification, though, for hosting). Of course, it would be nice if the U.S. would win a few Cup games to drive this point home. --What Would Azathoth Do?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   58.  Re: Americans will cheer for Soccer when...   by OrbusOne       at Thu 30 May 10:27am score of 1   in reply to comment 39     They have made it because they're located in the weakest futból area in the world. Whoooooohooooo we qualified over Jamaica, Costa Rica and....hmmm Aruba? Let's see them start in a group like South America or Europe see how they do there.. My name is mud and it's always been/ 'Cause I'm the most boring sons-a-bitch you've ever seen - Primus   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]   59.  Re: Americans will cheer for Soccer when...   by Kurtz       at Thu 30 May 11:41am score of 1   in reply to comment 58     1. CONCACAF (the confederation the U.S. competes in for qualification comprising North America and Caribbean islands, for you observers) is not 'the weakest futból area in the world'. That would be the Oceania Football Confederation, followed by the Asian Football Confederation. Opinions would differ on which is next, CONCACAF or the African confederation, with South America and Europe being the top dogs, of course. 2. The U.S. also qualified over El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras to name a few, hardly walk-overs. 3. European qualifying includes such luminaries as Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Malta, and Andorra. 4. Regardless of all of the above, qualifying four times in row when you hadn't qualified at all for the previous 40 years is a definite sign of improvement. --What Would Azathoth Do?   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

46.  deep seated allegiances   by ibuck       at Thu 30 May 9:21am score of 2 astute     This is such a non-story. Just because I moved to Washington, DC, does that make it remarkable that I don't root for the Redskins, Caps, or Bul-er-um-Wizards? I'm from Pennsylvania and started watching baseball as the Phillies won the '80 series and football right on the heels of Pittsburgh's dynasty. The teams we root for as children are often the teams we root for as adults. So I will continue to dutifully suffer as a Philly fan and wave my terrible towel during football season, regardless of where I live, be it PA, DC or Timbuktu. What dipshit expects these people to adopt the sports teams of their adopted home???   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

56.  Why americans will never play real soccer.   by OrbusOne       at Thu 30 May 10:22am score of 1     The reason why most immigrants (me included) don't watch american soccer (that's the first problem...it's called soccer.) is because it didn't grow organically. It didn't start in some park with a few players that eventually decided to organize a league and play the neighbors in the other park. Here it started when Nike and the rest of the sporting industry decided to look for another money making machine, since their usual market started to stagnate and by mini-van driving moms looking for ways to pesker their kids even more. At least that's the way a Colombia Futból Team fan looks at it. My name is mud and it's always been/ 'Cause I'm the most boring sons-a-bitch you've ever seen - Primus   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

57.  A North American Issue   by xTrapL8       at Thu 30 May 10:25am score of 2 astute     This situation is pretty much mirrored here in Canada. If anything, it might even be more extreme, since the Canadian team sucks so completely. Plus, we have hockey to rally around. I disagree with those posters who say hockey has cornered that particular market. I love both sports, although football (what North Americans insist on calling soccer) is in my blood. Of course, I was born and raised in northern England, so that's no surprise. I would follow Canada's team if it ever made the World Cup, but it rarely does (one flukey Gold Cup win doesn't count). But my roots are English (and to a lesser extent, Irish) so it doesn't matter how much I love my adopted country, when I'm in a bar in Vancouver's east end and I see the Three Lions on the white shirts of my compatriots, I can't help myself. I get a lump in my throat, my heart rate quickens, my eyes tear up. Jesus, as kids, if we didn't have an actual football, we'd kick around tennis balls or even fucking rolled up newspapers (yeah, I know that sounds Pythonesque), throw down our jackets in the streets to make goals, and pretend to live the dream of one day stepping out on that field at the world's party. Wow, I just got emotional there. I guess that's the point. "I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones." -- John Cage   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

63.  Re: A North American Issue   by eminem enterprises       at Thu 30 May 6:53pm score of 1   in reply to comment 57     I must admit it bugs me that here in Toronto, whenever the Greek national basketball team beats Canada's team in an international tournament, the streets of the "Greek-Canadian" part of town are jammed with people screaming happily and waving the Greek flag like they just repulsed the Persians at Thermopolaye. Even though Canadians have never had the "love it or leave it" ethos that Americans do, I still find such behaviour annoying. And I'm nominally a progressive, pro-immigrant-type. Everybody has a share   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]

61.  Rivalry   by Dischord       at Thu 30 May 1:32pm score of 1     First of all, I am a huge soccer fan, and I am Mexican by birth although I have lived here in the States for 10 years now. Also, I plan to watch all the World Cup matches, there's nothing better to watch every 4 four years. It used to be that Mexico and Costa Rica was the classic match but the 90's have seen the Mexico-U.S. match become the primary match in the region. People have a hard time supporting the US because they dominate the world in almost every discussion. In essence, soccer is the last major world sport that is not dominated by the US. To cheer for the US, is essentially cheering for the eventual superpower of soccer. It is not hard to imagine the US winning the WC in 2018 or sooner. Envy is a human trait, and I think the antagonism for the US resides there. Personally, I would love to see Poland, Portugal, and Korea win. Keep Your Eyes Open   [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ]