 |  | top stories | | 1 new story
no new comments | | etcetera | 2 new stories
31 new comments | | filmtv | 3 new stories
47 new comments | | media | 1 new story
44 new comments | | politics | 3 new stories
125 new comments | | scitech | 1 new story
6 new comments | | work | 2 new stories
28 new comments | |
| | | | | Jews In Spaaaaaace! — Religious Observance Above The Earth | | | | | found on: National Post
written by tralala, edited by John (Plastic) [ read unedited ]
posted Wed 29 May 8:27am | | | | |
 | "When the Space Shuttle Columbia blasts off in July, Colonel Ilan Ramon will be the first Israeli to lift off into space," tralala writes. "Although not the first Jewish astronaut, he is the first to request how, technically, should he
observe the Sabbath in space. The Sabbath for the earth bound is celebrated every seventh day starting Friday at sunset. With the shuttle orbiting the earth every ninety minutes, Col. Ramon wondered if he would have to observe the Sabbath every 10 and a half hours. He turned to the Rabbis for advice...What makes sense to you in terms of an appropriate observance?"
| |
[ more plastic... ] |
| | | | | | | 1. And what about the Space Muslims?
| | | | by Akio |  | | | at Wed 29 May 8:33am | score of 5 funny | | | | | | |
Don't they have to pray five times a day AND face towards Mecca? How do you do that at 4,000 miles an hour?
Anybody know if they make hallal Tang?
monkeyrotica.com: "It's like when they opened the Ark of the Covenant. Except with monkeys."
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 53. Re: And what about the Space Muslims?
| | | | by Petronius |  | | | at Thu 30 May 8:18am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 19 | | | | | |
Some years ago a Saudi princeling went up on the Space shuttle as a mission specialist. I believe he got some Koranic scholars to produce the ruling. As I saw it, they said the direction wasn't so important, as Allah would hear his prayers from anywhere. Especially from a member of the royal family
What rescues us from insignificance is the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. Carl Sagan
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 54. Re: And what about the Space Muslims?
| | | | by toothgnip |  | | | at Thu 30 May 8:25am | score of 2 clever | | in reply to comment 1 | | | | | |
I was watching Pitch Black the other day. If you're not familiar with the movie, it starts out with a passenger transport crashing on an isolated planet somewhere in space.
Several of the passengers are Muslims. Shortly after they crash, the Muslims are seen standing out in the desert, looking up into the sky as they pray.
It's certainly not a movie for intellectuals, but I thought it was a smart touch.
goats: the comic strip
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 2. Space Jews
| | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Wed 29 May 8:41am | score of 5 informative | | | | | | |
This is no big deal, as Momus tells us, "The messiah of the Christian religion is a Jewish extraterrestrial, the result of a supernatural being from space's in vitro fertilization of a jewish mother. Jewish people are still cutting the human formulas with extraterrestrial ones, bringing us atomic physics, pyschoanalysis, and Nobel prizes out of all proportion to their numbers. I believe they are hyperevolute and extraterrestrial and have been sent, like Spock of The Enterprise, as guides to make sure that we have the logical means to fulfill our ultimate mission, the colonisation of the stars. If we have faith in it, Jewish brilliance will lead us to the promised land, which is space."
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 39. Re: Space Jews
| | | | by NH4 | | | | at Wed 29 May 3:53pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 2 | | | | | |
I agree with the spirit of what Momus has to say, if not the specifics. If you believe the New Testament, it is likely that Mary was impregnated by an angel (an "eloh"), and in vitro fertilization was not required ("the sons of God found the daughters of men fair"). I agree that the angels (the "Elohim," which is the first word translated "God" in Genesis) are extraterrestrials (and reptilian humanoids at that, accounting for the wings which are always reported when angels are seen), but it would be inaccurate to call Jesus an "extraterrestrial," since he didn't originate on another planet.
I will spare you all the citations about the reptilian humanoids from Orion and the innumerable conspiracies that are deemed to originate with folk from Orion -- or Jews, for that matter.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 42. Re: Space Jews
| | | | by Xiamin | | | | at Wed 29 May 4:16pm | score of 2 brilliant | | in reply to comment 39 | | | | | |
(and reptilian humanoids at that, accounting for the wings which are always reported when angels are seen)
You probably know far more about reptilian humans than I do, but what reptiles have wings? I'm afraid I don't see the connection between lizards and winged beings...
'Did you come here alone?' 'No, I came with my bicycle.'
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 51. Re: Space Jews
| | | | by stevetherobot | | | | at Thu 30 May 12:14am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 39 | | | | | |
accounting for the wings which are always reported when angels are seen
Are you referring to reports in the bible? If you are you are mistaken. Most of the accounts in the bible don't describe the angels and they certainly don't mention wings. There are some descriptions that include wings, but, if I am not mistaken, those are descriptions of arch-angels or cherubim, the highest order of angels. It is not apparent if all angels have wings.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 58. Apostles' Creed
| | | | by mrjeff3000 | | | | at Thu 30 May 8:58pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 39 | | | | | |
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary
Mary is generally assumed by Christians to have been impregnated by the Holy Spirit -- that is, by God Himself. While the sons of God may have found the daughters of men fair, the Big Guy probably had a hands off policy on his old lady.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 45. Re: Space Jews
| | | | by NH4 | | | | at Wed 29 May 5:51pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 42 | | | | | |
Thanks for the Icke cite, Xiamin; there's a lot more where that came from (and where he comes from), of course.
As for connecting reptiles and winged beings, perhaps I've been too influenced by the stories emanating from science journals about dinosaurs evolving into modern birds ...
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | | | | 6. I'm not a Rabbi...
| | | | by tdahnsn |  | | | at Wed 29 May 8:47am | score of 4 astute | | | | | | |
There's a few things:
1) The mentioned Sabbath every 10.5 hours. A big part of the Sabbath observance (in fact, most observance) is the idea of community and family. I suggest he have his shabbat observance when his family or community does.
2) Most Jews face east while praying. There's some reference to facing Jerusalem and The Temple, but east is, of course, relative in Space. I figure he and any Muslim should just be looking Earthwards.
3) Ummm...The Sabbath begins and ends with a candle lighting. Is he planning to have an open flame in the space shuttle? Is that a good idea? And wine. I'm sure the French have had wine in space before, so that's probably been covered.
On a more personal note, I'm pretty sure God would be just fine with the fact the guy thought about how to fulfill the one of big ten rules while in space in the first place.
Why? What's the most callous thing you've said today?
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 57. The French?
| | | | by aaronv | | | | at Thu 30 May 12:33pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 6 | | | | | |
I'm sure the French have had wine in space before, so that's probably been covered.
The French have been to space? On whose shuttle?
,..,..,.,,.,..,,,....,..,,,...,.,,,..,..,,..,Aaron
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 7. No One Else Has This Problem?
| | | | by tarotXV |  | | | at Wed 29 May 9:05am | score of 3 brilliant | | | | | | |
Pardon my religious ignorance, but don't Christians of all demoninations have the same "day of rest" commandment? (Exodus 20:8-11 -KJV).
Why wasn't there such a big issue about this when the Apollo astronauts went up? Why is the issue of deciding when the Sabbath is in space such an issue when a Jew gets into orbit? Is it because he's the first guy who's ever thought about it? If so, I find that an interesting observation about religion and astronauts. Or maybe astronauts are really religious and take the words of Matthew 6:5-7 (KJV) to heart.
You've all got to figure it out for yourselves.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 9. Re: No One Else Has This Problem?
| | | | by maml | | | | at Wed 29 May 9:14am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 7 | | | | | |
The astronauts who've gone up in space before haven't been observant of the sabbath. This guy (who happens to be Jewish. Not surprising, since keeping the sabbath is much more popular in Judaism than Christianity) keeps to the letter of the law. I don't think he's necessarily standing in the market praying, I can't really tell what his intention is.
I've blocked AI. I'm happier now.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 11. Re: No One Else Has This Problem?
| | | | by khaosworks | | | | at Wed 29 May 9:34am | score of 3 informative | | in reply to comment 7 | | | | | |
[i]Pardon my religious ignorance, but don't Christians of all demoninations have the same "day of rest" commandment? (Exodus 20:8-11 -KJV). [/i]
No - because Christ did away with that in the New Testament (Mark 2:27) when he stated, in response to the Pharisees criticizing him and his disciples for picking grain on the Sabbath, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." In other words, in Christianity it's not as important as it is in Judaism.
In fact, it's arguable that the Ten Commandments, as they stand as the symbol of the Old Covenant, were swept away by Christ's New Covenant - which is now encompassed by "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, and all your mind and soul, and thy neighbor as thyself." (Matthew 22:37-39) But that's just me.
---"There's no justice. There's just us."
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 12. Ten Commandments Swept Away?
| | | | by tarotXV | | | | at Wed 29 May 9:47am | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 11 | | | | | |
So now I'm confused. If one interpretation of the New Covenant is that the Ten Commandments have been swept away (a phrase I am interpreting as similar to "done away with"), why is it so important to Judge Roy Moore and others to place the Commandments in public spaces?
Additional, I am not overly familiar with the Gospels, but I did find it fascinating that Jesus's New Covenant in Matthew 22:37-39 is similar to part of the most important prayer in Judaism:
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might
--Deuteronomy 6:5 (KJV)
You've all got to figure it out for yourselves.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 13. Re: Ten Commandments Swept Away?
| | | | by jhe | | | | at Wed 29 May 10:02am | score of 4 brilliant | | in reply to comment 12 | | | | | |
There are at least two (not mutually exclusive) possibilities:
1. Protestants, particularly fundamentalist Protestants, put a lot more weight on the text of the Bible than Catholics, Orthodox Xians or non-fundamentlist (a.k.a., 'main-stream' or 'liberal') Protestants. As a result they may be be less likely to do anything that looks like they are picking and choosing. They also regard the Old Testament (which my Jewish friends inform me is called the Bible, or the Hebrew Bible in a pinch) more highly than some other denominations.
2. Judge Moore and his band of plucky resisters to the secular state have vast amounts of spare time at their disposal and their heads way, way up their asses.
"Because a person's a person, no matter how small" -- Theodore Geisel
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 18. Re: Ten Commandments Swept Away?
| | | | by randombozo | | | | at Wed 29 May 11:22am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 12 | | | | | |
> So now I'm confused. If one interpretation of the New Covenant is that the Ten Commandments have been swept away [...], why is it so important to Judge Roy Moore and others to place the Commandments in public spaces?
I think you sort of answered yourself. It's only one interpretation. Judge Roy Moore has a different interpretation. After the Reformation, assuming they survived the Inquisitions, Christians could have differing interpretations and still call themselves Christians. Even for Catholics, Judge Roy Moore is not the Pope.
Some Christians insist on strict literal readings, some search for the spirit of the word, and some aren't terribly scholarly and just sort of take whatever "feels" right or "works" and goes with that. There's all sorts of differing views and for some the 10 Commandments are very important, and for others not. Even for those who take the 10 Commandments very seriously, not all demand that they be used as an evangelical tool.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 8. Allan Sherman Said It Best
| | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Wed 29 May 9:06am | score of 1 brilliant | | | | | | |
My name is Mr. Bloom, and I'm from New Rochelle,
And I sing this happy tune,
Because my son, the astronaut, young Harvey Bloom,
Has landed on the moon.
My wife and I, we miss our little Harvey so,
Back here in New Rochelle,
That every single night,
In the pale moonlight,
We walk out on the patio and yell:
Shine on, shine on, Harvey Bloom-- up in the sky.
You have been in orbit since January, February, June and July.
Don't come back too soon, we rented out your room.
So shine on, shine on, Harvey Bloom-- up there on the moon.
We'll miss you on the holidays, this year they're coming later.
We hope you have a very lovely seder in your crater.
Your mama sent the astronauts some chicken soup at school.
They're using it instead of rocket fuel.
If you like outer space, you oughta see your sister Janet.
She came in with a hairdo that is from another planet.
Your girl friend Shirley misses you, the Air Force says she had
A temper tantrum on the launching pad.
Shine on, shine on, Harvey Bloom-- up in the sky.
Under separate cover, I'm sending you some pickles and a corned beef on rye.
You brought Bromo Seltzer with you, I presume.
So shine on, shine on, Harvey Bloom.
Harvey Bloom is on the moon, oh yeah!
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 15. Arctic Jews
| | | | by captainebo | | | | at Wed 29 May 10:15am | score of 5 brilliant | | | | | | |
I'd be willing to be a Rabbi has ruled on how Jews should observe the Sabbath during the months long days and nights near the poles. Such a decision may be significant here.
I'm willing to bet that most of even the most orthodox Rabbis would simply allow the astronaut in question to pick a day long period of time and observe it then. Judism is remarkably practical (bear in mind much of Kosher regulations stem from the prevention of food poisoning and STDs).
Ebo
"In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds." -Martin Luther King
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 17. Re: Arctic Jews
| | | | by tdahnsn | | | | at Wed 29 May 11:09am | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 15 | | | | | |
Kosher and STDs? Seems like a stretch, though they do stem from economics and preventing various forms of food borne illness, as well as advice against assimilation.
1) Prohibition of mixing milk and meat. Well, the reference is not to cook a kid in it's mother's milk which was a surprisingly common practice among neighboring groups and those who interacted heavily might adopt those customs.
2) Eating only of true fish (real scales, real bones): Shellfish, sharks, and other Mediterranean fish that don't meet these criteria are just about the riskiest things you can eat from the sea, especially in a hot Mediterranean climate.
3) Cloven hoofed animals that chew their cud: this one has a lot more to do with economics and parasites. Pigs aren't Kosher mostly because raising pigs takes an awful lot of a precious commodity - water. Add to that that every animal which can be eaten (cows and sheep, etc.) is pretty easy to cook properly to kill them damn little critters that make us ill. All the predators are not cloven hoofed, and pretty much aren't terribly safe to eat.
4) No birds of prey. Toxins and parasites build up in those close to the top of the food chain and those that eat carrion. Birds of prey do both.
5) The cooking and slaughtering methods are the safest for use in a time before refrigeration. Salting your meat and draining blood does a lot to keep it from becoming contaminated. Rinsing it helps, too.
I've never heard about the STD connection, but would love to.
Why? What's the most callous thing you've said today?
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 38. Re: Arctic Jews
| | | | by NH4 | | | | at Wed 29 May 3:42pm | score of 2 informative | | in reply to comment 17 | | | | | |
All of the Levitical food rules can be thought of as originating with the idea that "your body becomes like what you eat, just as your soul becomes like what you think."
If the problem with pork was excessive water use in raising pigs, then there would have to be rules against rice, too. Pigs eat their own excrement (and lots of other gross things), even when raised on corn in captivity. Fail to cook pork well enough and eating it can kill you; fail to cook beef and it's called "steak tartare." Further, a cow digests the grain and grasses it eats through four stomachs, eliminating the toxins. Pigs *don't* eliminate the toxins they consume; they become toxic themselves.
The same thing is at work with shellfish: they are nature's own purifiers, eating all of the toxins and garbage in the environments they inhabit. If you eat something that disagrees with you, you might get sick and throw up; if you eat shellfish that's uncooked or tainted, you might get sick for four or five days -- if you don't die.
The slaughtering method, which assures that the animal doesn't know that it is about to die and doesn't feel pain in connection with its death, prevents the animal from pumping undesirable chemicals into its body before you can eat it. And the blood and fat (which are non-kosher) are the primary storehouses for toxins in the animal's body.
The more humans know about biology, the more sense the Levitical food rules make.
[Maybe that's because these rules weren't written by Moses or by God but by a preexisting advanced human civilization, but I'll save that for a response to another post.]
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 24. Re: Arctic Jews
| | | | by _Dante_ | | | | at Wed 29 May 2:00pm | score of 2 informative | | in reply to comment 15 | | | | | |
IIRC,
The rule in the arctic is that you observe Shabbat as if you were in the closest city which had a defined day and night.
So if you were at the north pole during the midnight sun, you would use the day and night times established in the closest southern city.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 26. Re: Arctic Jews
| | | | by drfeelgood | | | | at Wed 29 May 2:30pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 24 | | | | | |
I'm afraid I don't understand "a defined day and night." The "day" in northern Alaska last 3 months (and the winter "night" lasts 3 months as well). The day a little further south lasts only 2 months...yet further south lasts 1 month during the summer, and so forth. Do you mean places where there is only 24 hours of light and then 24 hours of night? Or do you mean 18 hours of day/6night, or 12/12???
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 37. Re: Arctic Jews
| | | | by captainebo | | | | at Wed 29 May 3:39pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 24 | | | | | |
by extension then, I'd imagine a Jewish Astronaut could observe the Sabbath according to the time at the launching point of his shuttle.
Ebo
"In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds." -Martin Luther King
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 31. Re: Arctic Jews
| | | | by Velvet Iguana | | | | at Wed 29 May 2:46pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 26 | | | | | |
Do you mean places where there is only 24 hours of light and then 24 hours of night?
Are you serious? There's no place (on earth) that has 24 hours of light followed by 24 hours of darkness. Once you get to a city that has 23 hours of light and 1 hour of dark you can establish the days passing by and use that to mark the Sabbath.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 20. Which clock?
| | | | by halfpastgone | | | | at Wed 29 May 1:23pm | score of 2 astute | | | | | | |
I'm far from being an expert on physics* (just finish an introductory course), but would Ramon be following the relativistic clock in Jerusalem or the the relativistic clock of his ship, or something else entirely?
*(brief attempt at explanation of relativity: as an object travels at speeds approaching the speed of light, which includes space travel, time dilates. So depending on the speed of the object (in this case the space ship), what would have been a year on the ship would have been a year and 15 days on earth.)
"I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence."-Edgar Allen Poe
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 29. Re: Which clock?
| | | | by nave | | | | at Wed 29 May 2:45pm | score of 3 informative | | in reply to comment 20 | | | | | |
The good thing about relativity is that one has to be going very, very fast to notice all the weirdness. Introductory relativity problems usually involve "spaceships" of some sort moving at sizeable fractions of c, the speed of light, but we don't really have the propulsion to move an object at those speeds (well a macroscopic object like the shuttle, particle colliders don't have much difficulty). So while the shuttle moves fast and all, it's not moving fast enough to make relativistic time dilation a concern.
(For reference, the NASA website gives the orbiting velocity as v=27,875 kph. As a fraction of c, we have v/c = .0025. So, t'=.999997t, not real significant.)
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 35. Re: Which clock?
| | | | by Thalia | | | | at Wed 29 May 3:00pm | score of 3 informative | | in reply to comment 20 | | | | | |
The speed of the space shuttle orbiting about Earth is 17,500 miles an hour (compare this to the Earth's speed of rotation at 1000 miles per hour). The speed of light is 691 million miles per hour. Their relative ratios are approximate 1:40,000. So the relativistic time dilation is approximately about 18 seconds per year, which is negligible. Especially if you consider that the Jewish calendar adds an extra month periodically to catch up with the seasons.
Thalia
Judeo-Christianity: just like regular Christianity, only insincerely 5% more inclusive! -- MC Nally
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 21. Cruel dissmissiveness followed by serious inquiry: | | | | by Clarkex | | | | at Wed 29 May 1:41pm | score of 3 astute | | | | | | |
"What makes sense to you in terms of an appropriate observance?"
Uh, maybe Ilan will take this opportunity to recognize that religious thought makes no sense in a modern, logical world and give up on ages-old, yet oddly useless tradition?
I mean, this reads like a recruiting poster for Atheism. ... Seriously, he's going to be In Space, so maybe he can get a note from somebody that says he can give the pre-medieval superstitions a rest while he's busy trying to do his job and not get killed. Or, if it's that important to him, he can just not go. ...
But this is just me; I'm a pretty stiff-backed, doctrinaire clench-jawed atheist (to a degree where I recognize it as not a personal characteristic but rather as a character flaw, mea culpa) and stuff like this makes no sense to me. I know there are people out there who reconcile love of a God and a modern understanding of the world. I just don't know how they possibly can, aside from rabid denial. ...
Any of you out there able to have any kind of faith in a higher power in spite of the evidence? How does that work?
Clarkex
"Karma's just justice without the satisfaction. I don't believe in justice." -- James Caan, The Way of the Gun
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 23. Re: Cruel dissmissiveness followed by serious inqu | | | | by callmejay | | | | at Wed 29 May 1:47pm | score of 3 astute | | in reply to comment 21 | | | | | |
The Jewish religion has an enormous literature based on laws and various forms of logical analysis. Just because you don't agree with the premise doesn't mean that there's no logic to it. Trust me, there's a TREMENDOUS amount of logic involved.
Now I'm not saying that the logic is necessarily convincing, but it's there.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity. -- Yeats, "The Second Coming"
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 30. This is actually a good case.
| | | | by 2trew | | | | at Wed 29 May 2:45pm | score of 3 informative | | in reply to comment 21 | | | | | |
I'm not a big booster for religion, but Judaism is one of the more interesting ones to watch.
You may not agree with the basic thesis, but until you've seen the Rabbis interpreting those ancient laws to fit modern times, brother, you ain't seen logic.
I'll use an example I've used before. Judaism prohibits, among other things, Jews from kindling a flame on the Sabbath. So, what did they do? Did they take the road that seems likely for some of their other monotheistic brethren and start hanging people for lighting fires on the Sabbath, or make war on the neighbours who lit fires on the Sabbath? Nope. They got non-Jews to do it for them when it was necessary. After all, it's their religion, it applies to them, not you.
One of the wealthy Jewish families in Canada (Bronfmans? Reichmans? One of 'em anyway)had a matriarch who was confined to a wheelchair. She lived in a two story flat. They consulted with the Rabbis, and determined that because there was a danger that pushing the button could cause a spark, which would be kindling a flame, she couldn't use the elevator on the Sabbath. Then somebody came up with a thought: if the elevator was on a timer, then there would be no action taken on the Sabbath that would result in a flame being kindled, so every ten minutes the elevator goes from one floor to the other.
This question of observance in space is just a higher order version of the same thing, and if you check out the links upthread you'll find that it's all very solid reasoning.
After checking out some of these disputes, I'm happy to be an atheist simply because it's so much easier. Ethically, it's like playing tennis with the net down, or the ability to adjust the side lines.
As for that first big hurdle, accepting the existence of a supreme being and the specific body of doctrine that comes attached, I can't help you there.
I'd suggest consulting a Rabbi.
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. Benjamin Franklin
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | 55. Re: This is actually a good case.
| | | | by tdahnsn | | | | at Thu 30 May 8:31am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 30 | | | | | |
Another good one: there are several hotels in cities that have a major concentration of jews that set the elevators to run automatically, stopping on every floor or every other floor during the sabbath.
There is a strong tendency toward pragmatism. It helps when your religious leaders realized that they had no idea what the future held.
Why? What's the most callous thing you've said today?
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 34. There's actually an old joke about this...
| | | | by jacobw | | | | at Wed 29 May 2:55pm | score of 4 brilliant | | | | | | |
In the interests of religious understanding, an atheist, a Catholic, and an Orthodox Jew are all sent into space. They orbit the earth hundreds of times, and land, as an excited crowd gathers to hear what it was like.
First, the atheist emerges, and says, "It was wonderful. I could see the perfect clockwork logic of the universe unfold before me, and I was in awe at the genius of Newton."
Then the Catholic emerges, and says, "It was wonderful. I could see the magnificent handiwork of my Heavenly Father spread out before us, and I knew there was a God in Heaven."
Then the Jew staggers out, exhausted,and says, "It was horrible. Every ten minutes, you put the tefillin on, you take the tefillin off."
(PS: I'm actually posting this as a scientific experiment, since the number of moderation points it gets will correlate precisely to the number of Jews reading Plastic.)
Prythee no sport with stingy or play asperity game. --Anonymous Author of Toy Instructions
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 36. Sunrise, sunset
| | | | by asthmaticeog | | | | at Wed 29 May 3:34pm | score of 4 clever | | | | | | |
The Sabbath starts at sunset on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday. In the Jewish calendar, all days begin at nightfall and continue through the next nightfall. Don't ask me, folks, that's just how we do things. Now, since sunset is an utterly moot point when one is that far away from the surface of the Earth, doesn't he maybe get off scott-free on observing? How would he observe, anyway? The use of fire is forbidden, and electricity is considered a form of fire. I'll bet the spacecrafts thrusters are, too. Plus, isn't electricity used for life-support? Wouldn't the act of breathing be tacitly breaking the Sabbath?
Obligitory Jewish in-joke: Of course, I suppose he could just get a really long eruv.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 47. Re: Sunrise, sunset
| | | | by eduardo | | | | at Wed 29 May 6:24pm | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 36 | | | | | |
Plus, isn't electricity used for life-support? Wouldn't the act of breathing be tacitly breaking the Sabbath?
Shouldn't you know the answer to your question. It's okay to benefit from fire/electricity, as long as you made it before the sabbath. Have you ever had a Sabbath dinner in pitch-dark? Probably not.
J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
|
| | | | | | 44. J.R. "Bob" Heinlein...
| | | | by Hiro Agonistes | | | | at Wed 29 May 5:25pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
...tangentially addressed this in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" (otherwise known as "Red Mars" r0.5): the protagonist's co-husband is a pritcher whose sect observes the Sabbath on (if I remember correctly) Tuesday evening, Garden-of-Eden time.
So pay attention to when the terminator crosses Baghdad.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 48. Why this is important....
| | | | by eduardo | | | | at Wed 29 May 6:41pm | score of 4 astute | | | | | | |
First, a little introduction. I am a Jew who doesn't observe the Sabbath - and I wish I did. I know that god isn't sitting there with a punch-in clock keeping track of what I do. The reason I wish I had the habbit of keeping Sabbath is because my life would benefit greatly from setting a day to rid myself of wordly matters and meditate. But I can never get myself to overcome the "necessity" to drive, use the computer, talk on the phone, etc., for a whole day. Of course it's not a necessity, but I've been leading my life this way for 20 years, and it's tough to change.
I am sure Colonel Ramon doesn't think god is sitting there with a punch-clock, either. What he does value is his own discipline in having kept the Sabbath his whole life. There are clauses in Jewish law that you can break the Sabbath when necessary: that's why a religious Jew can perform his Ambulance or Fire Resque duties on a saturday. However, being in space isn't a life-or-death situation so it seems that to be true to himself, Colonel Ramon needs to maintain his discipline. The question of HOW to do it is relevant because he needs to feel that whatever he will end up doing is the correct thing, and so his streak will not be broken.
My personal opinion: he should observe sabbath for 24 earth hours, such that it will correspond with whever he lived before. The spirit of the Sabbath is to dedicate one day in seven to intraspection, and this will go along with the spirit of the notion. God, like I said, isn't keeping track.
J'ai une petite amie avec des tres, tres grandes tetons.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 49. Skip It While In Space
| | | | by Noexit | | | | at Wed 29 May 8:03pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
What makes sense to you in terms of an appropriate observance?
I should think that for the safety and the benefit of everyone on his mission, Col. Ramon should hold off on his religious observations. If the crew can do without him for one day, perhaps he's not especially mission critical and should stay grounded until he's more, um, grounded.
pfffttttt!
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| | | | | | 50. Observing the Sabbath is easy...
| | | | by RawkStah | | | | at Wed 29 May 8:42pm | score of 1 | | | | | | |
it's getting the blood for Purim that is the sticky wicket.
Really, Sabbath observation should be fairly easy -- just observe it 144 hours (I think) after the last Sabbath you celebrated. Sabbath celebrations are already relative -- Jews in Nebraska (there are some) don't celebrate the Sabbath at the same time as Jews in London or Tel Aviv. The candles would probably need to be scrapped for safety and physics reasons.
As far as the "day of rest", perhaps you could get by with the fact that less work is done in zero-g. Well, there's the whole getting into the space suit, going EV, worrying that some tiny meteorite will tear your suit and you'll die when your blood boils, adapting to a zero-g environment, letting HAL win at chess so he won't kill your friends... Physically, there's less work, I guess.
Nothing scares us more than what we want.
| | | | [ ...reply just to this | comment on the story... | next new ] | | |
| |
| | Member Login | | | |
|
