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|  | | | | Would America Run Without Illegal Labor? | | | | | found on: The New York Times (registration required)
written by Tranq303, edited by Nick (Plastic) [ read unedited ]
posted Mon 20 May 12:59pm | | | | |
 | "When observing the new hysteria about illegal immigrants being in this country," writes Tranq303, "I can't help but think how dependant we've become on them. Americans might be the richest people on earth but they're also some of the cheapest. Consumers and Stockholders trump workers everytime. We like our profits high and our labor costs low. It's an open secret that New York Cities deli's aren't providing jobs to legal citizens just super cheap bagels. And did you ever wonder why our food is cheaper than in Europe? So, can the USA run without illegal labor?"
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[ more plastic... ] |
| | | | | | | | | 2. Good question!
| | | | by Anonymous Idiot |  | | | at Mon 20 May 1:27pm | score of 1 irrelevant | | | | | | |
Here's an actuall good question. So much of the work that makes everything so cheap is provided by either low payed citizens, or illegals. What kind of profit could Wal-Mart make if they actually payed they're employees what they're worth, or payed market rates for their merchandice? It's sad to admit that the American economy is built on the backs of the oppressed, not something that any politician want's to admit to.
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| | | | | | 18. They Don't Mind ... Really
| | | | by mckoonts |  | | | at Mon 20 May 4:53pm | score of 3 irrelevant | | in reply to comment 2 | | | | | |
What, exactly, is a Wal-Mart employee worth?
How are illegal immigrants oppressed?
Discrimination? I hope so, considering its illegal to hire them.
Maybe its that terrible tax burden.
They must be hella masochists considering how much they like working in the Estados Unidos. I've worked with several illegal immigrants and they have expressed nothing but gratitude at the ability to work for minimum wage or lower. I made the same amount of money they did and didn't feel particularly oppressed.
Free Speech is the Right to Burn a Crowded Theater
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| | | | | 43. Re: They Don't Mind ... Really
| | | | by rsclickcom.com |  | | | at Tue 21 May 7:39am | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 18 | | | | | |
Thanks for speaking on their behalf - I'm sure it's much appreciated. In all seriousness I have noticed the same phenomenon and my therory as why these people are content with being on the bottom of our trickle down economy is that they live between cultural standards. In fact they are not at the bottom. Third world workers are. If all illegal immigrants were expelled we might expect to pay more for food service (because it is a service), but goods likely begin to cost less (because the labor pool would remain where standards are lowest). Lucky us.
STOP VOTING - IT'S JUST MAKING THINGS WORSE
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| | | | | 48. How much are you worth?
| | | | by weex | | | | at Tue 21 May 9:10am | score of 3 astute | | in reply to comment 18 | | | | | |
How much is a Wal-Mart employee worth?
I dunno -- how about enough work hours so they can qualify for ordinary health-care benefits? But Wal-Mart often doesn't permit that, keeping people working under 40 hours a week, just so they can keep them from becoming full-time. And these aren't "illegals" we're talking about but regular housewives and college students and ordinary Joes who are trying to get by without much of a financial "safety net."
Results: With 825,000 employees, Wal-Mart is the largest private employer in the country -- and its annual turnover rate among these people can reach nearly 50 percent. Nearly half of its workforce walks out the door every year. This means the company is constantly on the lookout for hundreds of thousands of new employees, who work there a few months, get tired of being screwed and leave. Despite this miserable track record, Wal-Mart ain't hurting: There are always people desperate enough, uneducated enough, to give it a shot.
You might try reading Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed for a different perspective than "they must be hella masochists."
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| | | | | 54. Re: How much are you worth?
| | | | by kindall | | | | at Tue 21 May 12:05pm | score of 1 clever | | in reply to comment 48 | | | | | |
There are always people desperate enough, uneducated enough, to give it a shot.
And this is exactly why they pay what they do. Anyone can work at a Wal-Mart. It requires no special skills that cannot be learned in, at most, a day. In short, even though Wal-Mart has 825,000 employees, the supply of unskilled labor far outstrips the demand.
One thing you can do to improve the lot of workers at Wal-Mart is to limit the supply of unskilled labor. For example, by clamping down on illegal immigration, or even restricting immigration in general. (Not to say that Wal-Mart hires illegals, of course, just that they increase the size of the unskilled labor pool.) Another thing you can do is to find ways to turn unskilled workers into skilled workers. This not only improves their lot as individuals by making them qualified for better jobs, but by reducing the size of the unskilled labor pool it drives wages up in that sector as well. Unfortunately it also drives companies to seek other sources of unskilled labor, which typically means manufacturing jobs are moved out of the country. This can be good for the people in the country that gets the jobs (and really, if you consider comparative advantage, good for everyone), but it's a tough sell in this country.
Or you could try to reduce the demand for unskilled labor. This is difficult, however, since automation allows more and more of the work that used to require skilled workers to be done by unskilled workers. To be a cashier at Wal-Mart, for instance, you barely even need to know how to operate the cash register anymore.
Or you could just do it by fiat. This is what the minimum wage and other labor laws are for. Unfortunately, this has two inevitable effects. Businesses must raise prices or reduce workforce to maintain profits. (Accepting lower profits is not really an option for publicly-traded companies; the stockholders won't allow it.) Both affect the very workers you're trying to protect with the law disproportionately. Especially in the case of Wal-Mart, where the people who seek jobs there are often the very sort of people who rely on the store's rock-bottom prices for their day-to-day survival.
Unfortunately there are no easy solutions to this problem, and certainly none that don't have short-term negative consequences that many people would consider unacceptable. It'd be great if Wal-Mart treated its employees better, but the simple fact is that the balance of supply and demand is currently in Wal-Mart's favor. Nobody is forced to work there; in fact, judging by the amount of employee turnover they manage to withstand, plenty of people find working there the best of all possible alternatives. Sad but true.
Eventually, perhaps everyone in the world will have some valuable skill or another. At that point, people will actually demand more money to do demeaning unskilled labor. If I can make $50 an hour slinging code, you'll have to pay me $100 an hour to clean toilets. This means, of course, that all toilets will become self-cleaning in short order -- all remaining unskilled jobs will be automated out of existence. But until that happy day when there are no unskilled workers, or so few in relation to the available positions that they can name their own price, utopia will remain on the back burner. Social change on this scale requires decades, even centuries, to happen.
I'm not incoherent, you're just dumb.
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| | | | | | 3. Call to action?
| | | | by zharris70 | | | | at Mon 20 May 1:31pm | score of 3 irrelevant | | | | | | |
If we presume it as true that the US is incapable of running without illegal aliens, then perhaps it is time we cut back on our immigration laws. A few good rules of thumb to think about when repeling a law is considered:
1) What percentage of the population is breaking this law?
2) By breaking this law, do you actually hurt anyone?
3) Is society inoperable without breaking this law?
Seems we could apply these rules to legalizing marijuana, as well.
If these comments seem illogical or unreasonable, I apologize...i'm new at punditry and my argument skills need improvement. But remember, that's how you learn, by asking.
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| | | | | | 17. Re: Call to action?
| | | | by TamLin |  | | | at Mon 20 May 4:12pm | score of 4 astute | | in reply to comment 3 | | | | | |
Suspect this wouldn't work. One of the reasons the labor is so cheap is that the immigrants aren't covered by labor laws. Remove the threat of deportation, and I suspect the costs of labor would go up.
"Oh, who am I kidding? The ramparts suck. They were sucky, sucky ramparts." - Stephen Colbert, The Daily Show
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| | | | | 29. Re: Call to action?
| | | | by verb | | | | at Tue 21 May 1:37am | score of 4 funny | | in reply to comment 3 | | | | | |
If these comments seem illogical or unreasonable, I apologize...i'm new at punditry and my argument skills need improvement. But remember, that's how you learn, by asking.
Damn you, Socrates.
--the verb
"During a nuclear incident, it is important to avoid radioactive material, if possible." -- Dept. of Homeland Security
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| | | | | | | 6. We Might As Well Try
| | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Mon 20 May 1:43pm | score of 2 astute | | | | | | |
Illegal immigration could stop tomorrow and the U.S. would still have a huge unskilled labor pool comprised of its own citizens on welfare. It's just these unfortunates whom the illegals take jobs away from. Stopping illegal immigration would provide them with employment.
Okay, that's employment for low wages doing landscaping, cleaning houses, working in restaurants and light manufacturing like the garment industry. It's still a job, most of them actually do want to get off welfare, and would probably agree it's nobody's fault but their own that they are unskilled.
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| | | | | | 16. Re: We Might As Well Try
| | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Mon 20 May 4:00pm | score of 3 informative | | in reply to comment 6 | | | | | |
I'm curious why you assume that people on welfare would want these jobs?
We run apartment complexes. We pay approximately $15/hour to various laborers (e.g. housecleaners, landscapers, pool cleaners, etc.) Unsurprisingly, very few citizens (non-illegal immigrants) show up for these posted jobs. Why? My expectation is that few people want to work crappy jobs for little pay. And, of course, the jobs are irregular. So, where are all these welfare-to-work folks who are going to do all these jobs?
And these jobs are the good ones. I know folks who hire people for farm labor, at about $6/hour, that is 40 hours per week durign the season. I would be surprised if more than 5% of the laborers were legal. Again, hard and nasty work, for not much money.
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| | | | | 40. Re: We Might As Well Try
| | | | by ericdb1 | | | | at Tue 21 May 6:19am | score of 4 informative | | in reply to comment 6 | | | | | |
Illegal immigration could stop tomorrow and the U.S. would still have a huge unskilled labor pool comprised of its own citizens on welfare. It's just these unfortunates whom the illegals take jobs away from. Stopping illegal immigration would provide them with employment.
Right. Because those people are busting down the doors to mow grass & clean homes.
You're completely ignoring the fact that:
a) most of our "own citizens" find the kind work we're dealing with here beneath them. They live in a culture that says "it's better to get a welfare check from 'the man' than to get a paycheck doing his cleanup work." The illigals that come here don't find the work beneath them because it's far better, and provides far more than any work they may be able to get at home.
2) most employers would much rather hire legals who work hard & do a good job. Hiring illegals is a major pain the ass. Their work force is constantly at risk of deportation and they're constantly at risk of fines.
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| | | | | 42. Re: We Might As Well Try
| | | | by hemphats | | | | at Tue 21 May 7:26am | score of 2 informative | | in reply to comment 6 | | | | | |
As a nation we may be better off paying the incompetent/unmotivated portion of our underclass to stay home from work while encouraging the hiring of hard working illegal immigrants. Are illegals really hurting the unemployables if they wouldn't work anyway?
The immigration system is set up to encourage illegal immigration anyway... its so much easier to become legal when immigrants are already living and working here, provided they go through the right channels.
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| | | | | | 7. Numbers
| | | | by profwhat | | | | at Mon 20 May 2:06pm | score of 4 informative | | | | | | |
Don't forget to distinguish between illegal and legal immigrants. It's not only the illegal immigrants who will do tough jobs.
The foreign-born population of the United States stands at about 27 million, equal to approximately 10 percent of the U.S. population. Of this total, the Immigration and Naturalization Service estimates about 6 million are illegal aliens. The total illegal population is thought to grow by 275,000 each year. (source)
In my opinion, we should change the ratio from 21 million legal, 6 million illegal to 27 million legal, 0 million illegal. Immigration is good; illegal immigration is bad. Increase enforcement of immigration laws, but also increase the quotas for immigrants. Let more in, but keep out people who are jumping line and taking other peoples' spots illegally.
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| | | | | | 19. Re: Numbers
| | | | by Henry Fnord |  | | | at Mon 20 May 4:57pm | score of 5 informative | | in reply to comment 7 | | | | | |
Unfortunately the issue has become more complicated.
By changing the regulations without significantly increasing the resources that go toward enforcing those regulations is self-defeating. As it stands now it's taken me 3 years to go from TN-1 (NAFTA non-resident alien) to conditional permanent resident alien with another year to go before my hearing for true permanent resident alien status. Five years all told from legal entry to permanent resident alien with certain factors contributing greatly to my accelerated state:
1] I speak, read and write English
2] I am college educated and thus can understand the bureaucratease that passes for English on immigration forms - most of the time
3] I had the $1000 in dosh to throw on immigration forms
4] I had access to all the documentation asked for, and it didn't require translation
5] I have stayed in one geographical region and haven't had to deal with more than one regional office of the INS
6] I came from Canada, a favored nation
7] I married an American
8] My son is an American
All these factors made my application process a walk in the park. Every trip to the INS office I encounter applicants/supplicants whose waiting periods are marvels in patience. Watch people trying to complete their foreign adoption after 5 years or get their brother into the country and be told the waiting list is 7 - 10 years' long and you realize that the INS is drastically understaffed and underfunded. It takes time to complete all the checks and inspections and form approvals, and this is all pre-September 11 experience talking.
To suddenly add another 5 -7 million applicants into the queue would have significant negative implications for the system, for the applicants and ultimately for the economy.
"This comment has been brought to you by a grant from the Fnord Foundation, and viewers like you."
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| | | | | | | 14. Wade in the water...
| | | | by captainebo | | | | at Mon 20 May 3:27pm | score of 3 astute | | | | | | |
I seem to remember a similar argument being made more than 150 years earlier to justify another brand of grossly undercompensated labor. What sort of nation are we if we choose cheap bagels over a providing human beings with a living wage?
Ebo
"In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds." -Martin Luther King
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| | | | | | 20. Re: Wade in the water...
| | | | by Henry Fnord | | | | at Mon 20 May 5:04pm | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 14 | | | | | |
A good question. There is no moral barometer in the free market economy. If there was, sweatshops and overseas manufacturing where conditions are deplorable would not exist, and businesses with factories in Mexico would be just as safe and clean as those in the US. The consumer would be happy and delighted to pay an extra 20-30% per item to ensure that this was the case. Unfortunately, this is a situation where the lowest common denominator wins out. Sad, but true, and I'm as guilty as anyone.
"This comment has been brought to you by a grant from the Fnord Foundation, and viewers like you."
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| | | | | 22. Re: Wade in the water...
| | | | by ekr | | | | at Mon 20 May 6:30pm | score of 2 astute | | in reply to comment 20 | | | | | |
If there was, sweatshops and overseas manufacturing where conditions are deplorable would not exist, and businesses with factories in Mexico would be just as safe and clean as those in the US. The consumer would be happy and delighted to pay an extra 20-30% per item to ensure that this was the case.
That's one possibility, but I don't think it's the likely one. Remember that the reason that jobs are moved to Mexico is because it's cheaper. The reason that it's cheaper is that Mexicans are willing to work for less money and in worse conditions than Americans are and this is sufficient to offset the inconvenience of doing business in Mexico as opposed to the US. Reduce that advantage far enough and companies will stop doing business in Mexico entirely, with the outcome that the people in question don't have any jobs at all. I'm sure they'd thank us.
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| | | | | 23. Re: Wade in the water...
| | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Mon 20 May 7:26pm | score of 1 astute | | in reply to comment 22 | | | | | |
while this may be true, working for lower wage under worse working conditions because it is part of your cultural heritage and you come from a hard working people who dont feel any job is below them is entirely different than taking a shitty low paying sometimes dangerous job because you have no other choices.
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| | | | | 36. Re: Wade in the water...
| | | | by IBeatTheFuckingWiz | | | | at Tue 21 May 5:55am | score of 1 obnoxious | | in reply to comment 14 | | | | | |
What sort of nation are we if we choose cheap bagels over a providing human beings with a living wage?
A nation that likes bagels, I imagine. Though, I trust that if bagels cost $2.50 a piece, I'd probably eat waffles instead.
Then I guess the immigrant bagel maker would have to look for work at the waffle factory. But man, is it going to be tough to get a job there since there are so many out of work bagel makers applying for jobs.
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| | | | | 49. Re: Wade in the water...
| | | | by Jeff The Unhip | | | | at Tue 21 May 9:27am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 36 | | | | | |
I trust that if bagels cost $2.50 a piece, I'd probably eat waffles instead.
Who said anything about $2.50 a piece?
More to the point, it's not really a matter of any difference in the price of the bagel; it's how the money currently collected is distributed. If more money needs to be taken, it should come not from customers, but from investors, as long as it doesn't make the company run at a loss. But that's not likely to happen as long as the means of production aren't primarily employee-owned. (Where Marx was wrong was in interposing the State between the workers and the means of production. The basic point--a democratic economy to complement the democratic polity--is still perfectly valid.)
DISCLAIMER: I'm an investor myself, though on a very small scale. Still, I'm no longer under any illusions about the "funny-money" quality of the stock market, and I'm not particularly interested in taking from others who need it so I can get rich, even if I paid for the privilege.
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| | | | | 52. Re: Wade in the water...
| | | | by Anonymous Idiot | | | | at Tue 21 May 11:15am | score of 1 brilliant | | in reply to comment 14 | | | | | |
Carl, can we please get a "-1, bad analogy" moderation category? And something that scans posts for any mention of slavery, the theory of relativity or the Nazis and highlights them?
Slaves were brought here against their will; when emancipated, they got the hell out of there. Illegal immigrants risk their lives and make great personal sacrifices to willingly come to this country. There is absolutely no similarity between the two cases. Nobody's forcefully rounding up Mexicans and sailing them across the Rio Grande. You don't hear about illegal immigrants getting killed trying to leave the USA.
--osc.
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| | | | | 55. Re: Wade in the water...
| | | | by shadarr | | | | at Tue 21 May 1:08pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 52 | | | | | |
Rather than highlight such posts, I propose that they be displayed in white type on a white background with a -1, bad analogy as the trigger. That way anyone who actually wants to read the bad analogy can, but they will have to select the text to see it.
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| | | | | 58. Re: Wade in the water...
| | | | by captainebo | | | | at Tue 21 May 1:32pm | score of 3 brilliant | | in reply to comment 52 | | | | | |
Slaves were brought here against their will; when emancipated, they got the hell out of there.
Incorrect, slaves, when emancipated, most often remained as sharecroppers working for the same men who once enslaved them. Rather then keeping them in bondage with laws and chains, they were kept in bondange with crippling debt and a void of other options. Economics, you see, can be just as binding as whips and fetters.
Illegal immigrants risk their lives and make great personal sacrifices to willingly come to this country. There is absolutely no similarity between the two cases.
Likewise, illegal immigrants enter this country to seek subsistence wages and the possibility of such luxuries as health care and schooling. What they receive are wages just high enough to keep them from starvation. The technical term for this is "wage slavery." Again, they are bound by poverty and lack of opportunity, much like their African predicesors.
And something that scans posts for any mention of slavery, the theory of relativity or the Nazis and highlights them?
Not sure what Einstein has to do with anything, but regarding slaves and Nazis, I would advise you to rate analogies on their validity, not whether or not they make you uncomfortable.
Ebo
"In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds." -Martin Luther King
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| | | | | 62. Re: Wade in the water...
| | | | by bray | | | | at Wed 22 May 3:44am | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 58 | | | | | |
Rather then keeping them in bondage with laws and chains, they were kept in bondange with crippling debt and a void of other options. Economics, you see, can be just as binding as whips and fetters.
The difference between "crippling debt and a void of other options" and "whips and fetters" might seem small to you, but I doubt it would to anyone who had ever been whipped or bound with fetters.
Likewise, illegal immigrants enter this country
They do so voluntarily and have the opportunity to go back to where they came from. Very much unlike actual slaves.
Honestly, there's enough bad things to say about the treatment of illegal immigrants without reaching for such ridiculous analogies.
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| | | | | | 28. life in potato-land ...
| | | | by govmnt_drone | | | | at Tue 21 May 12:17am | score of 2 astute | | | | | | |
would come to a stand still if every illegal immigrant were kicked out. I lived in the Snake River plain for a summer and all the farm hands that were out from 5am to 9pm were Hispanics of well known dubious legality. INS raids were largely ineffectual and were enough to make their (INS that is) presence known, rather than actually trying to track down every illegal immigrant. If they did in fact send every illegal immigrant back, food prices would skyrocket to what people in other countries have to pay for food. US immigration laws are already bad enough, by focusing on illegal immigrants under the auspices of national security, we would be uncovering the truth that every farmer knows: you cant grow cheap without cheap workers.
I've seen Steve Fossett in red spandex.
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| | | | | | 30. America's manifest destiny
| | | | by acb | | | | at Tue 21 May 4:04am | score of 1 clever | | | | | | |
Everybody knows that God gifted America with a manifest destiny which includes supremacy over the world, and the rewards of its natural resources and cheap labor.
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| | | | | | 39. Who needs illegal when you can get cheap
| | | | by JohnnyMalaria | | | | at Tue 21 May 6:10am | score of 3 astute | | | | | | |
All the US would need to do is extend its hand even further to China to ensure Wal-Mart can continue to provide cheap rubbish at even cheaper prices. It seems not so long ago that Wal-Mart prided itself on selling All-American cheap crap. Now it sells nuclear-power masquerading as third-world cheap crap.
Of course, the human rights abuses, lack of elections, no freedom of speech etc. hasn't prevented successive administrations "nurturing" the flow of cheap crap to fill the empty lives of the increasingly obese, coke-swilling, burger munching masses. At least if Bush could see beyond his hypocrisy and extend the same options to Cuba, then cheap fruit might be more plentiful. Sadly, the US government can't get over the fact that it was fairly and squarely beaten into submission by Castro during the Cuban missile crisis. "What's that?" you say. Yup - he got an absolute guarantee that the US would never invade Cuba and that the US would pull strategic arms out of Turkey. I know the spin in the US was different, but then it always is.
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| | | | | | 56. Re: Who needs illegal when you can get cheap
| | | | by Petronius | | | | at Tue 21 May 1:16pm | score of 1 | | in reply to comment 39 | | | | | |
Beaten by Castro? Castro had nothing to do with it. It was between the US and the Russians. And Khrushchev was deposed by his cronies not long after. Its unclear that the Russians ever even consulted Castro about the missles. Castro was along for the ride. To pay for being carried by the Russians for so long he ended up renting his people as mercenaries in various adventures in Africa.
What rescues us from insignificance is the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers. Carl Sagan
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| | | | | | 50. America's slave class.
| | | | by tsheets23 | | | | at Tue 21 May 10:06am | score of 3 astute | | | | | | |
They do our labor, but have zero rights. A recent
supreme court case verified this. Illegals get totally jerked
around in the legal system. However, we are more than
happy to have them wash our dishes and mow our lawns.
Illegal aliens should still get fair labor treatment, otherwise,
they are just a slave class.
"I just don't have the discipline to be a hippie" - Homer J. Simpson
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| | | | | | | 57. It's not just illegal immigrants
| | | | by jeffbiss | | | | at Tue 21 May 1:16pm | score of 2 astute | | | | | | |
As noted by many other Plasticians, the goal of business is to maximize profits by minimizing expenses. This goal is also aided from legislation produced by the U.S. government that allows a large number of high tech workers to enter the country. This drives down the wages of native workers in the fields of IT, programming, engineering, among other jobs. In fact due to the nature of the technology we use business is able to farm out work to lower paid workers living in other countries such as IT workers in India. eWeek just had an article stating that this situation will only get worse in the search for greater profitability.
The illegals generally take jobs many U.S. citizens do NOT want and therefore help keep prices low. Legal immigrants generally take well paying jobs because they are better educated and therefore they hurt well educated natives.
This of course doesn't even begin to take into account the fact that uncontrolled immigration costs more in expenditures than they produce. 92% of California's population growth since the early 80's is due to immigration. Their tax base cannot keep up with the burden this population growth has placed on the system in that state. This does not even begin to account for environmental degradation that population growth causes.
Illegal immigration can be lived with, the trouble is that too many businesses rely on the profits it ensures to make it go away.
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| | | | | | 60. Re: It's not just illegal immigrants
| | | | by Eric Blair | | | | at Tue 21 May 7:45pm | score of 2 clever | | in reply to comment 57 | | | | | |
There is debate over whether the H-1b visa has been used to fill positions that otherwise would not have been filled by Americans or whether the visa has been used to drive down wages of native high-tech workers. There is some truth to both claims, but it is not a one-sided issue. Remember that the going rate for a B.S. in engineering or computer science is $50,000-60,000/year. That's a pretty good salary in a country where the average income is about $30,000/yr. Of course, salaries for people with M.S. and Ph.D. are even higher.
Yes, some companies are farming out work to workers in India. Companies are in the business to make a profit, not to keep their employees happy. If they can get away paying someone $1,000/yr. in India to do a job that an American would charge $60,000/year in America to perform, the companies will go with the Indian. While it may not be good for the American workers, it is good for the company's profits.
I don't know if educated legal immigrants actually "take jobs away" from Americans or not. It is possible that they do jobs that Americans in general may not be qualified for. Let me give an example. My wife got a job recently along with about five other immigrants. She came to this country around six months ago. Since the job was a city/state government job, the rule was that qualified Americans had to be picked before qualified foreigners, a policy I agree with. Yet, few, if any, Americans applied for a job where the qualification was an M.E. in engineering for a job that pays over $50,000/year. The jobs mostly went to foreigners, as they were the ones who were qualified/interested in taking it. If an American was qualified and did not get the job and could prove it, they could have sued the city/state government but no one did anything. Basically, only foreigners applied for a job paying over $50,000/year so therefore foreigners got the job. There are many cases like this.
I don't know if immigration costs more than it produces. 40% of the Silicon Valley high-tech workforce is foreign, and they produce computer software. Computer software is one of America's biggest exports. About %25-35 of the high-level (master's level and above) workforce of the Aerospace companies (Boeing,TRW,Lockheed,Raytheon etc.) are comprised of foreigners who became American citizens. America is the world leader in aerospace technology in the world, and this has commercial and military benefits. Immigrant doctors are disproportionately involved in the care of rural and poor Americans, as the native American doctors generally prefer to work in the relatively well-off suburbs.
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| | | | | | 63. What about free flow of labor?
| | | | by fishist | | | | at Wed 22 May 9:51am | score of 1 | | | | | | |
Anyone ever wonder why NAFTA and WTO rules apply to damn near everything but labor? Seems strange to me. I mean in the giant cog of capitolism labor is a critical factor.
How come labor can't more freely between borders like goods and capitol? Oh Yeah! Cause then the price of labor would stabilize and you wouldn't be able to move your business to a country with weak labor laws (and severe labor abuses). Gosh ,thank goodness someone is thinking about the little guy (ie Ross Perot, he's little) out there.
Yen
Reward good behavior. Punish poor behavior
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